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A leadership crisis in the Nix community

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By Daroc Alden 作者:Daroc Alden
April 29, 2024  29 四月 2024

On April 21, a group of anonymous authors and non-anonymous signatories published a lengthy open letter to the Nix community and Nix founder Eelco Dolstra calling for his resignation from the project. They claimed ongoing problems with the project's leadership, primarily focusing on the way his actions have allegedly undermined people nominally empowered to perform various moderation and governance tasks. Since its release, the letter has gained more than 100 signatures.
4 月 21 日,一群匿名作者和非匿名签名者发表了一封致 Nix 社区和 Nix 创始人 Eelco Dolstra 的长篇公开信,呼吁他辞去该项目的职务。他们声称该项目的领导层一直存在问题,主要集中在他的行为据称破坏了名义上有权执行各种审核和治理任务的人的方式。自发布以来,这封信已经获得了100多个签名。

Decision-making authority

The Nix project is governed by the NixOS Foundation, a non-profit organization that handles the project's finances and legal responsibilities. The foundation itself is headed by a board with five voting members, chaired by Dolstra. There are no term limits, and the board selects its own membership and chair. According to the board's team page, its responsibilities include handling "administrative, legal, and financial tasks", sponsorships and donations, funding for "community events and efforts", and acting as an arbiter in case of conflicts in the community. Notably, the board "is not responsible for technical leadership, decisions, or direction", nor is it expected to handle all decision making. The board is responsible for providing "a framework for teams to self-organize", including a duty to "[h]and out the credentials and permissions required for the teams' work".
Nix 项目由 NixOS 基金会管理,该基金会是一个处理项目财务和法律责任的非营利组织。该基金会本身由一个由五名投票成员组成的董事会领导,由多尔斯特拉担任主席。没有任期限制,董事会选择自己的成员和主席。根据董事会的团队页面,其职责包括处理“行政、法律和财务任务”、赞助和捐赠、为“社区活动和努力”提供资金,以及在社区发生冲突时充当仲裁者。值得注意的是,董事会“不负责技术领导、决策或指导”,也不负责处理所有决策。董事会负责提供“团队自组织的框架”,包括“提供团队工作所需的证书和权限”的职责。

The open letter has several related complaints, but the most central one is that they allege Dolstra has repeatedly strong-armed the board and members of other community teams to overrule their decisions:
这封公开信有几个相关的抱怨,但最核心的抱怨是他们声称 Dolstra 一再强硬地武装董事会和其他社区团队成员来推翻他们的决定:

For example, after months of discussion on sponsorship policy in the board, with consensus having been formed on a policy that allows community veto of NixCon sponsors, Eelco (and Graham [Christensen], at the same time) appeared at the open board call over 45 minutes in, and began re-litigating the issue of whether we need to limit sponsorship to begin with, which had already been agreed upon by everyone but him.
例如,在董事会对赞助政策进行了数月的讨论后,在允许社区否决 NixCon 赞助商的政策上达成了共识,Eelco(和 Graham [Christensen])在超过 45 分钟后出现在公开董事会电话会议上,并开始重新讨论我们是否需要从一开始就限制赞助的问题, 除了他之外,所有人都已经同意了。

Christensen is Dolstra's co-founder at Determinate Systems. The letter lists other examples, such as Dolstra blocking longtime contributors from becoming code reviewers or blocking a build-system change that had made it through the RFC process. The letter concludes that Dolstra is essentially leveraging social power from being the founder of the project to overrule decisions that are nominally supposed to be made collaboratively. In short, Dolstra is acting as "the effective Benevolent Dictator for Life (BDFL)" of the project, even though the NixOS Foundation's charter doesn't grant anyone that authority. The letter says this leads to "a culture of responsibility without authority" that erodes contributors' desire to continue working on the project. It specifically mentions the moderation team as an example of this, saying that its members are "in fear of their authority being undermined directly by Eelco or indirectly through the Foundation".
Christensen 是 Dolstra 在 Determinate Systems 的联合创始人。这封信还列举了其他例子,比如 Dolstra 阻止长期贡献者成为代码审查者,或者阻止通过 RFC 流程的构建系统更改。这封信的结论是,多尔斯特拉本质上是在利用作为该项目创始人的社会权力来推翻名义上应该合作做出的决定。简而言之,Dolstra 是该项目的“有效的终身仁慈独裁者 (BDFL)”,尽管 NixOS 基金会的章程没有授予任何人这种权力。这封信说,这导致了“一种没有权威的责任文化”,削弱了贡献者继续从事该项目的愿望。它特别提到了审核团队作为一个例子,称其成员“担心他们的权威被Eelco直接或间接通过基金会破坏”。

When asked to comment on the concerns raised in the letter, members of the NixOS moderation team responded:
当被问及对信中提出的担忧发表评论时,NixOS 审核团队的成员回答说:

Overall we think that the letter describes the situation of the moderation team fairly well. We have been operating in an emergency mode most of the time for over half a year now. Our team retention is at an all time low, and we are barely able to keep up with recruiting new members as old ones quit. Right now the moderation team is down to four people, including two who desire to leave as soon as a replacement is found, not counting another moderator who left last week.

To the extent that the moderation team feels disempowered, this is mostly because of heavy antagonism from some community members or risks of destabilizing the community, and not because of an actual lack of power. Most of that is a reflection of a deeper cultural conflict within the community and not directly related to the foundation board.

Despite slightly disagreeing with the source of the issue, they went on to acknowledge that Dolstra had impeded several attempts to improve the situation, and said that they understood many community members' complaints. The team also called the situation itself "a deep structural and cultural issue involving many people".
尽管对问题的根源略有不同,但他们继续承认 Dolstra 阻碍了改善这种情况的几次尝试,并表示他们理解许多社区成员的投诉。该团队还称这种情况本身是“涉及许多人的深层结构和文化问题”。

Pierre Bourdon, a long-time contributor to Nix, posted on Mastodon about his experience working on NixOS, stating that while he disagrees with the tone and approach of the open letter, the factual statements about Dolstra's leadership match his own experience.
Nix 的长期撰稿人 Pierre Bourdon 在 Mastodon 上发布了他在 NixOS 上工作的经历,并表示虽然他不同意公开信的语气和方法,但关于 Dolstra 领导层的事实陈述与他自己的经历相符。

Conflicts of interest 利益冲突

The letter also alleges several conflicts of interest, primarily concerning Dolstra's employer, Determinate Systems. Anduril, a military contractor that uses NixOS, has repeatedly attempted to become a sponsor of NixCon, which did not go over well with the community, as reflected in the minutes of the board meeting on March 20. The letter says Dolstra pushed strongly for the inclusion of Anduril as a sponsor even after it became clear that many core contributors disagreed. Anduril was eventually dropped as a sponsor for both NixCon 2023 and NixCon 2024 after community pressure. [Thanks to Martin Weinelt for pointing out that Anduril did end up sponsoring NixCon 2024.]
这封信还指控了几起利益冲突,主要涉及Dolstra的雇主Determinate Systems。使用 NixOS 的军事承包商 Anduril 一再试图成为 NixCon 的赞助商,但正如 3 月 20 日的董事会会议纪要所反映的那样,这在社区中并不顺利。这封信说,多尔斯特拉强烈推动将安杜里尔列为赞助商,即使很明显许多核心贡献者不同意。在社区压力下,Anduril 最终被取消了 NixCon 2023 和 NixCon 2024 的赞助商资格。[感谢 Martin Weinelt 指出 Anduril 最终确实赞助了 NixCon 2024。

On April 10, Théophane Hufschmitt, the secretary of the board, shared an update on the board's new sponsorship policy. Hufschmitt expressed the board's apologies for the way the situation was handled, and promised that "we will prioritize transparency, inclusivity, and responsiveness in our decision-making processes."
4 月 10 日,董事会秘书 Théophane Hufschmitt 分享了董事会新赞助政策的最新情况。Hufschmitt 对董事会的处理方式表示歉意,并承诺“我们将在决策过程中优先考虑透明度、包容性和响应能力。

That same day, Samuel Dionne-Riel stated that Dolstra had refused to clarify whether he had a relationship with Anduril and asked Christensen, a co-founder of Determinate Systems: "Does DetSys have or had relationships with Anduril?" Christensen replied: "Did you know this category of question is pretty much impossible to answer because NDAs are a thing?"
同一天,塞缪尔·迪翁-瑞尔(Samuel Dionne-Riel)表示,多尔斯特拉拒绝澄清他是否与安杜里尔有关系,并问Determinate Systems的联合创始人克里斯滕森:“DetSys是否与安杜里尔有关系?克里斯滕森回答说:“你知道这类问题几乎不可能回答吗,因为保密协议是一回事?

This isn't the only time Dolstra has appeared to avoid disclosing potential conflicts of interest; the letter alleges that he kept his status as a founder of Determinate Systems secret for some months (a claim Dolstra later denied), and that this is especially worrying in light of some of the technical promises that Determinate Systems makes to customers. The company produces its own installer for Nix that the company promises will provide stable support for some Nix features. The letter states: "This is fine, however, it is questionably acceptable to do that while employing the lead developer of CppNix [the main Nix implementation] and saying nothing about how this will interact with the team's [decision-making] autonomy." The concerns are not entirely theoretical, either; the main Nix installer has been broken in various ways since version 2.18 in September 2023.
这并不是 Dolstra 唯一一次避免披露潜在的利益冲突;这封信声称,他将自己作为Determinate Systems创始人的身份保密了几个月(Dolstra后来否认了这一说法),鉴于Determinate Systems向客户做出的一些技术承诺,这尤其令人担忧。该公司为 Nix 生产了自己的安装程序,该公司承诺将为 Nix 的某些功能提供稳定的支持。这封信指出:“这很好,但是,在雇用 CppNix [主要的 Nix 实现] 的首席开发人员并且没有说明这将如何与团队的 [决策] 自主权互动时这样做是值得怀疑的。这些担忧也不完全是理论上的;自 2023 年 9 月的 2.18 版本以来,主要的 Nix 安装程序已以各种方式被破坏。

Call to action 号召性用语

The final section of the letter calls for Dolstra's resignation from the board, suggesting that he should also completely disengage from the project for at least six months, to give the rest of the board time to reform the project's governance.
这封信的最后一部分要求 Dolstra 从董事会辞职,建议他也应该完全脱离该项目至少六个月,以便让董事会的其他成员有时间改革项目的治理。

This document should be seen as the canary in the coal mine for what many people have been feeling for years and does not exhaustively cover absolutely all problems in the community, but we hope it is enough to justify action.

The letter ends by suggesting that if Dolstra doesn't resign, the signatories would switch to and support a fork of the project. I contacted several of the signatories to ask whether they'd be willing to provide additional commentary on why they believed a letter like this to be a necessary step. Haydon Welsh responded:
这封信最后建议,如果 Dolstra 不辞职,签署方将转而支持该项目的一个分支。我联系了几位签名者,询问他们是否愿意就为什么他们认为这样的信件是必要的步骤提供额外的评论。海顿·威尔士(Haydon Welsh)回应道:

I signed the letter because it was clear that every other team member was sick and tired of Eelco, and so I saw it only right if that's their only hope to regain enthusiasm for the project. No open-source project should die or be hard-forked because of one person, that destroys a lot of the purpose for being open-source.
我在这封信上签了名,因为很明显,其他所有团队成员都对 Eelco 感到厌倦和厌倦,所以我认为只有当这是他们重拾对项目的热情的唯一希望时,我才是正确的。任何开源项目都不应该因为一个人而死亡或被硬分叉,这会破坏开源的很多目的。

Kiara Grouwstra had stronger feelings on the matter:
Kiara Grouwstra 对此事有更强烈的感受:

While I want a full rotation of members on the NixOS board, as well as changes to its goal and structure so as to better incorporate the community including marginalized perspectives, my friend convinced me the polemic response would not sit well with the moderators, and shared with me the draft open letter about Eelco's role, which I opted to settle for as the lower-hanging fruit right now.
虽然我希望 NixOS 董事会的成员全面轮换,并改变其目标和结构,以便更好地融入社区,包括边缘化的观点,但我的朋友说服了我,争论性的回应不会让版主满意,并与我分享了关于 Eelco 角色的公开信草稿, 我现在选择将其作为唾手可得的果实。

On April 27, Xe Iaso wrote a blog post about xer perspective on the matter, stating that at this point a fork is both inevitable and doomed. Even if the actions called for in the letter do come about, the difficult situation is already having an impact on the Nix community. On April 21, Nixpkgs contributor Kamila Borowska resigned from the project. On April 25, Mario Rodas, who had contributed more than 250 packages, followed suit. In total, 24 maintainers have left.
4 月 27 日,Xe Iaso 写了一篇关于 xer 对此事的看法的博文,指出在这一点上,分叉既不可避免又注定要失败。即使信中呼吁的行动确实发生了,困难的局面已经对尼克斯社区产生了影响。4 月 21 日,Nixpkgs 贡献者 Kamila Borowska 从该项目辞职。4 月 25 日,贡献了 250 多个包裹的马里奥·罗达斯 (Mario Rodas) 也紧随其后。总共有 24 名维护者离开了。

Dolstra's response Dolstra的回应

On April 26, Dolstra posted a response to the letter. He states that the role of the board is to handle the financial and legal work, not to run the Nix community. He also claims that he has had "very little involvement in Nixpkgs and NixOS in recent years". Dolstra goes on to state: "I am just one member of the five-member Nix team and hold no more formal authority than the others in determining the direction of the team." While this is true, it does not directly refute the letter's claims that Dolstra exceeds the formal authority granted to him.
4 月 26 日,Dolstra 发布了对这封信的回应。他表示,董事会的职责是处理财务和法律工作,而不是管理 Nix 社区。他还声称,他“近年来很少参与 Nixpkgs 和 NixOS”。多尔斯特拉接着说:“我只是尼克斯五人团队中的一员,在决定球队的方向方面,我没有比其他人更正式的权力。虽然这是真的,但它并没有直接反驳这封信的说法,即多尔斯特拉超越了授予他的正式权力。

Dolstra also reiterated his position that NixCon should not refuse Anduril's sponsorship, stating: "It is my opinion that it is not for us, as open source software developers, to decide whose views are valid and whose are not, and to allow or disallow project or conference participation as a result." Dolstra does, however, explicitly refute the claim that his involvement in Determinate Systems was at all secret: "My role, participation, and focus on the good work being done at Determinate Systems have been public knowledge since the company's inception". He goes on to say that the claim that Determinate Systems seeks to have an outsized influence on the community is "patently false".
Dolstra 还重申了他的立场,即 NixCon 不应该拒绝 Anduril 的赞助,他说:“我认为,作为开源软件开发人员,我们不能决定谁的观点有效,谁的观点无效,并允许或不允许项目或会议参与。然而,Dolstra 确实明确驳斥了他参与 Determinate Systems 完全是秘密的说法:“自公司成立以来,我的角色、参与和对 Determinate Systems 所做的出色工作的关注一直是公开的”。他接着说,关于Determinate Systems试图对社区产生巨大影响的说法是“显然是错误的”。

He ends his response by inviting community members who feel unwelcome in the Nix community to work for Determinate Systems instead:
最后,他邀请那些在 Nix 社区中感到不受欢迎的社区成员为 Determinate Systems 工作:

I remain committed to creating a community where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued, and I will not let unfounded accusations detract from this important work. I encourage everyone reading this who feels that they have not been heard or feels displaced to join the Determinate Systems community as we continue working to make Nix as easy to use and as impactful as possible.
我仍然致力于创建一个让每个人都感到被看到、听到和重视的社区,我不会让毫无根据的指责减损这项重要工作。我鼓励所有读到这篇文章的人,如果觉得自己没有被听到或感到流离失所,请加入 Determinate Systems 社区,因为我们将继续努力使 Nix 尽可能易于使用和有影响力。

It is difficult to predict where the Nix community will go from here, and what the eventual fate of any forks will be. For now, Dolstra remains the chair of the board — a position he seems unlikely to give up under pressure from the letter's signatories.
很难预测 Nix 社区将何去何从,以及任何分叉的最终命运是什么。目前,多尔斯特拉仍然是董事会主席 - 在这封信的签署者的压力下,他似乎不太可能放弃这一职位。

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A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 14:33 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 14:33 UTC (周一) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [ 链接]

I have to say, personally if I was responding to accusations of using my personal authority to go around the foundation and official governance structures and using it to try to monopolize the communities work for my company and it's clients at the cost of the community, I would not do that by responding in my personal capacity on that very company's blog (without notifying the foindation) and then not so subtly declaring that community a lost cause in favor of my company...

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 14:38 UTC (Mon) by delroth (subscriber, #110092) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 14:38 UTC (周一) by delroth (subscriber, #110092) [ 链接]

Maybe one small thing missing from this article is that after the statement by Dolstra on DetSys's blog, the other members of the NixOS Foundation (of which Dolstra is the chair) posted a response to distance themselves from the views in the DetSys article and to clarify that it was written without coordinating with the board: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/small-update-from-the-board...
也许这篇文章中缺少的一件小事是,在 Dolstra 在 DetSys 的博客上发表声明后,NixOS 基金会的其他成员(Dolstra 是该基金会的主席)发布了一个回应,与 DetSys 文章中的观点保持距离,并澄清它是在没有与董事会协调的情况下编写的: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/small-update-from-the-board......

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 14:41 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 14:41 UTC (周一) 由 kleptog (subscriber, #1183) 发布 [ 链接]

> "It is my opinion that it is not for us, as open source software developers, to decide whose views are valid and whose are not, and to allow or disallow project or conference participation as a result."
> “我认为,作为开源软件开发人员,我们不能决定谁的观点有效,谁的观点无效,并允许或不允许参与项目或会议。

We're not talking about participation, we're talking about sponsorship. As a community you can agree that certain kinds of sponsorships should be rejected and that it their right. Since there appears to be a significant consensus here, I don't see that Eelco's personal opinion is really relevant here. He should be trying to change people's minds, not just telling them they're wrong.
我们不是在谈论参与,而是在谈论赞助。作为一个社区,您可以同意某些类型的赞助应该被拒绝,这是他们的权利。由于这里似乎有一个重要的共识,我不认为 Eelco 的个人意见在这里真正相关。他应该试图改变人们的想法,而不仅仅是告诉他们他们错了。

In general though, Foundations like this really should have a scheduled rotation of members, if only to prevent ossification.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:24 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 15:24 UTC (周一) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [ 链接]

I mean, we don't have to speculate there. I first heard about Anduril about a year or so ago in the tones of "did you know there's this peter thiel backed company using nix to make some pretty heinous killer drone and border stuff? ew". But at that point nobody was really hugely inclined to do anything about it. Even when their employees who, unsurprisingly, hold some pretty reprehensible views started airing them in discussions and engaging in "I'm not touching you" rules probing, the response was more annoyance at Anduril. Things only truly came to a head regarding them when the foundation indicated that it was going to side with Anduril over the community every step of the way unless their hands were forced by third parties, in combination with the other organizational issues. That is very different from just participation, or even taking a bit of sponsorship money.
我的意思是,我们不必在那里推测。大约一年前,我第一次听说 Anduril 的语气是“你知道有一家 Peter Thiel 支持的公司使用 nix 制造一些非常令人发指的杀手无人机和边境产品吗?呃“。但在那个时候,没有人真的非常愿意对此做任何事情。不出所料,当他们的员工持有一些相当应受谴责的观点时,他们开始在讨论中发表意见,并参与“我不碰你”的规则探索,但安杜里尔的反应更加恼火。只有当基金会表示它将在社区的每一步都与Anduril站在一起时,事情才真正达到顶峰,除非他们的手被第三方强迫,再加上其他组织问题。这与仅仅参与,甚至拿一点赞助费有很大不同。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 14:50 UTC (Mon) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 14:50 UTC (周一) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [ 链接]

Wow, what a disgusting attack on people, who in a meritocracy, actually the most measurable merit. That's IMHO all that counts, people with strongly held opinions can hold them as strongly as they can, but that's about all they're >entitled< to. End of story. The NixOS community, if anything, is now in dire need of help defending against this woke mob. Just like Linux kernel community had to be defended (and yet it still pops up from time to time, but Linus showing these people their place right at the beginning, saying he's not changing - we need an analogue of that here right now)
哇,对人们的攻击是多么令人作呕,在精英统治下,他们实际上是最可衡量的优点。恕我直言,这才是最重要的,持有强烈观点的人可以尽可能强烈地坚持它们,但这就是他们>有权<的全部。故事到此结束。NixOS 社区,如果有的话,现在迫切需要帮助来抵御这个觉醒的暴徒。就像 Linux 内核社区必须得到捍卫一样(但它仍然不时出现,但 Linus 一开始就向这些人展示了他们的位置,说他没有改变——我们现在需要一个类似的东西)

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 14:57 UTC (Mon) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 14:57 UTC (周一) 由 snajpa (subscriber, #73467) 发布 [ 链接]

Knowing Eelco and Graham personally, also knowing what the state of "community" was a little while ago - before I disconnected precisely because of the onramp of internal politics and more importantly, where that is coming from, nope, I am not interested in one single byte of what the opposing side has to say. This is just becoming too much.
我个人认识 Eelco 和 Graham,也知道不久前“社区”的状态是什么——在我断开连接之前,正是因为内部政治的入口,更重要的是,它来自哪里,不,我对对方要说的任何一个字节都不感兴趣。这简直太过分了。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:01 UTC (Mon) by flussence (subscriber, #85566) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 15:01 UTC (周一) by flussence (subscriber, #85566) [ 链接]

> help defending against this woke mob

Scratch an LLM fanatic, find a fascist.

Let's stop this one here

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:03 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 15:03 UTC (周一) 由 corbet (editor, #1) 发布 [ 链接]

I don't see anything good coming from this particular subthread, can we just stop now and save us all a bunch of obnoxiousness, please?

Let's stop this one here

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:24 UTC (Mon) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 15:24 UTC (周一) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [ 链接]

TBH I think you should have flagged the parent comment of what you actually replied to.

Let's stop this one here

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:30 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 15:30 UTC (周一) by corbet (editor, #1) [ 链接]

I flagged the subthread, not a specific comment; my request landed in that thread at the point that I found it, not necessarily where things started to take a bad turn.

Let's stop this one here

Posted Apr 29, 2024 16:05 UTC (Mon) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 16:05 UTC (周一) 由 josh (subscriber, #17465) 发布 [ 链接]

It would be helpful, when trying to steer LWN comments away from what you want to see less of, to *very overtly* state the point at which you see the thread going wrong, because people take that as feedback on what you're actually complaining about. Otherwise, if people often see the pattern of "awful comment", "reasonable callout of awful comment", "response to callout saying to stop", without a clear indication that the *entire thread* started from the awful comment was undesirable, what it *looks* like is that you're flagging the callout of bad behavior rather than the bad behavior.
当试图将 LWN 评论从您希望看到的更少内容中转移开来时,*非常公开地*说明您看到线程出错的点会很有帮助,因为人们会将其视为对您实际抱怨的内容的反馈。否则,如果人们经常看到“糟糕的评论”、“糟糕的评论的合理呼唤”、“对呼唤的回应说停止”的模式,而没有明确表明从糟糕的评论开始的*整个线程*是不可取的,那么它*看起来*就像你标记了不良行为的呼吁而不是不良行为。

This is *especially* true on topics that reliably attract awful comments.

Let's stop this one here

Posted Apr 29, 2024 17:10 UTC (Mon) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 17:10 UTC (周一) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [ 链接]

> Otherwise, if people often see the pattern of "awful comment", "reasonable callout of awful comment", "response to callout saying to stop"
> 否则,如果人们经常看到“糟糕的评论”、“对糟糕的评论的合理呼唤”、“对呼唤的回应说停止”的模式

Throwing around insults like "LLM fanatic" and "fascist" is hardly a "reasonable callout of [a] comment", if that's what you were implying.

Let's stop this one here

Posted Apr 29, 2024 17:15 UTC (Mon) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 17:15 UTC (周一) 由 josh (subscriber, #17465) 发布 [ 链接]

The former certainly seems like a non sequitur. The latter seems like an entirely reasonable callout of someone who uses phrases like "woke mob", and I am directly stating that rather than implying it.
前者当然看起来像是非 sequitur。后者似乎是对使用“觉醒暴徒”等短语的人的完全合理的呼唤,我直接说明而不是暗示它。

In any case, I would propose that going meta and talking *about* the comment thread only provides a certain amount of value, and that value has now been used up. So, let's stop, shall we?

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:12 UTC (Mon) by burtness (subscriber, #93747) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 15:12 UTC (周一) by burtness (subscriber, #93747) [ 链接]

The impression I got is that Linus held on to his position by working to change the behaviour thats been a problem? You're also misrepresenting the NixOS situation given that the complaints are coming (at least in part) from people who very much do the work only to see it undermined, frustrated or undone. The status quo is not really meritocracy, its just a fiefdom for the pioneers.
我得到的印象是,莱纳斯通过努力改变一直存在问题的行为来保持他的立场?你也歪曲了 NixOS 的情况,因为抱怨(至少部分)来自那些非常做这项工作的人,只是为了看到它被破坏、沮丧或撤消。现状并不是真正的精英管理,它只是先驱者的领地。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:17 UTC (Mon) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 15:17 UTC (周一) 由 snajpa (subscriber, #73467) 发布 [ 链接]

The way I see it, he maybe toned it down a bit, but from what I've seen, his rants can still hurt a person emotionally, which was the main complaint there. I don't think that has changed - maybe there was a bit of a period where some people said he's changed, but one can absolutely find new rants that have spilled outside of LKML.
在我看来,他可能会稍微缓和一点,但从我所看到的情况来看,他的咆哮仍然会在情感上伤害一个人,这是那里的主要抱怨。我不认为这已经改变——也许有一段时间有人说他变了,但人们绝对可以找到新的咆哮,这些咆哮已经溢出到 LKML 之外。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 15:24 UTC (Mon) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 15:24 UTC (周一) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [ 链接]

> The status quo is not really meritocracy, its just a fiefdom for the pioneers.
> 现状并不是真正的精英管理,它只是先驱者的领地。

Yeah, that is absolutely true.

I think if we were to look for the original root cause of these problems here, it is that Eelco was too hands-off with the community when it really began forming, he was polishing the rough edges on Nix for too long, so it grew fast way over what he was ever ready to handle and now it seems to me it is just too late - especially now that the tensions are so noticeable it's even made it here to LWN.
我认为,如果我们要在这里寻找这些问题的根本原因,那就是 Eelco 在社区真正开始形成时对社区过于放手,他在尼克斯身上打磨粗糙的边缘太久了,所以它增长得很快,超出了他准备好处理的范围,现在在我看来为时已晚——尤其是现在紧张局势如此明显,以至于甚至来到了LWN。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 16:00 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link]
Posted 四月 29, 2024 16:00 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [ 链接]

I don't think that's entirely fair. There were people in the community who anticipated this exact outcome 3 years ago, e.g. https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98#issuecomment-894473214 is remarkably prescient. This whole thing hasn't happened overnight, the tensions have obviously been building for a while and there were plenty of occasions to change course.
我认为这并不完全公平。社区中有些人在 3 年前就预料到了这个确切的结果,例如 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98#issuecomment-894473214 非常有先见之明。这整件事不是一夜之间发生的,紧张局势显然已经积累了一段时间,而且有很多机会改变方向。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 16:38 UTC (Mon) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 16:38 UTC (周一) by snajpa (subscriber, #73467) [ 链接]

It was evident to me some trouble was brewing even sooner, for me the tipping point, where I decided to keep myself out of it, was NixCon '19. AFAIK, it started as kind of a power struggle between then the largest Nix-based employer (Tweag) and the original crew... it wasn't a nice picture already back then. IMHO the Anduril drama masks these issues and paints the two implicitly as evil, so it makes sense to me why it's this much emphasized by the "anonymous" collective.
对我来说,很明显,一些麻烦正在酝酿得更快,对我来说,决定让自己远离它的转折点是 NixCon '19。AFAIK,它开始于当时最大的尼克斯雇主 (Tweag) 和原班人马之间的权力斗争......那时候已经不是一张好照片了。恕我直言,Anduril 戏剧掩盖了这些问题,并含蓄地将两者描绘成邪恶,所以对我来说,为什么“匿名”集体如此强调它是有道理的。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 16:11 UTC (Mon) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 16:11 UTC (周一) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [ 链接]

> Christensen replied: "Did you know this category of question is pretty much impossible to answer because NDAs are a thing?"

Unless someone is reliably in the habit of glomarizing ("I can neither confirm nor deny") in *both* directions, which most people are not, then it's actually *very easy* to communicate this information. If you *don't* have a business relationship, you don't have an NDA, so "no" can always be communicated. "No comment" thus very likely means either 1) "yes", or 2) "I don't think that should matter", both of which round to the same thing.
除非有人可靠地习惯于在*两个*方向上进行glomarizing(“我既不能确认也不能否认”),而大多数人都不是,那么传达这些信息实际上*非常容易*。如果你*没有*有业务关系,你就没有保密协议,所以“不”总是可以传达的。因此,“无可奉告”很可能意味着 1) “是”,或 2) “我认为这无关紧要”,两者都指向同一件事。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 16:34 UTC (Mon) by Karellen (subscriber, #67644) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 16:34 UTC (周一) by Karellen (subscriber, #67644) [ 链接]

No open-source project should die or be hard-forked because of one person, that destroys a lot of the purpose for being open-source.

Really? I'd have thought that, in the event of other possibilities being exhausted, the ability of any (sub-)group to hard-fork a project is one of the main purposes for being open-source.

Nix* Governance: An Analysis
Nix* 治理:分析

Posted Apr 29, 2024 17:05 UTC (Mon) by dmv (subscriber, #168800) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 17:05 UTC (周一) 由 dmv (subscriber, #168800) 发布 [ 链接]

What is clear from the past couple of weeks is that there is a vast amount of confusion and discontent over Nix* governance. What to make of it and the competing claims about it? Well, we have an entry point we can use to bootstrap an understanding of the authorities and equities: the Foundation is a legal entity. Whatever may be said, or omitted, about the structure and function of the community, the Foundation's identity and legal authority/responsibility flows from the Foundation's Articles of Incorporation. Helpfully enough, those are available in one of the NixOS repos in both the original Dutch and in English translation. Let's have a look. You can follow along here: https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/blob/master/by-laws/O...
从过去几周可以清楚地看出,人们对尼克斯*的治理存在着大量的困惑和不满。如何看待它以及关于它的相互竞争的说法?好吧,我们有一个切入点,我们可以用它来引导对当局和公平的理解:基金会是一个法人实体。无论对社区的结构和功能如何说或省略,基金会的身份和法律权力/责任都源于基金会的公司章程。很有帮助的是,这些都可以在 NixOS 存储库之一中找到,有荷兰语原文和英文翻译。让我们来看看。您可以在这里关注:https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/blob/master/by-laws/O...

The Foundation is incorporated in order to work towards some purpose. Article 2.1 provides the Foundation's purpose:

"The purpose of the foundation is: to develop, propagate, and promote the adoption of a purely functional software deployment model and to support open-source projects that implement that model, as well as other activities that relate to, pertain to, and/or can be conducive to the foregoing in the broadest sense."

So that's why the Foundation exists. Who runs the Foundation? Article 3.1 establishes the Foundation board: "The board manages the foundation, sets the policy, and bears ultimate responsibility for the realization of the foundation’s purpose." Furthermore, Article 8 provides, "The board represents the foundation, but the foundation may also be represented by two jointly acting board members." So the board manages and represents the Foundation, although two jointly acting board members may represent the board itself. Ok. Anyone else? Yes (maybe). Article 8.2 says:

"The board may grant, in writing, a general or special power of attorney to one or more specific board members or other persons for the purpose of representing the foundation. The board must make a general power of attorney known to third parties through publication in the commercial register at the Chamber of Commerce in the locale where the foundation is registered."

The locale is Utrecht. I wonder if the board has ever granted a power of attorney to anyone, whether general or special. There appears to be no requirement that the board make known any grant of a special power of attorney, whereas a general power of attorney should have been advertised at the Chamber of Commerce in Utrecht.

What may the board may do to accomplish the Foundation's purposes? Article 5 governs meetings that may be held and how to hold them, while Article 6 speaks more specifically decisionmaking. The board makes decisions through resolutions: "The board may adopt resolutions only if a majority of serving board members is present or represented" at a meeting (Article 6.1). Resolutions pass or fail by simple majority vote, with each board member having one vote (and each vote, furthermore, of the same weight as the others) (Articles 6.4 & 6.5). A resolution may also be adopted outside the context of meetings, per Article 6.6: "The board may also adopt resolutions outside meetings; however, such a resolution may
董事会可以做些什么来实现基金会的宗旨?第5条规定了可以召开的会议和如何举行会议,而第6条则更具体地规定了决策。董事会通过决议做出决定:“只有在大多数现任董事会成员出席或代表出席会议的情况下,董事会才能通过决议”(第 6.1 条)。决议通过或失败以简单多数票通过,每个董事会成员有一票表决权(此外,每票与其他表决权相同)(第 6.4 条和第 6.5 条)。根据第 6.6 条,决议也可以在会议范围之外通过:“董事会也可以在会议之外通过决议;但是,这样的决议可能

be adopted only if all board members express their support of the resolution in writing." So resolutions agreed upon outside of meetings must be unanimous, with all the board expressing agreement in writing.

The board is also granted the power to appoint committees or workgroups in Article 11: "The board may establish committees or workgroups, which may carry out specific board tasks under the board’s responsibility." Article 12.1 gives the board the power to "adopt regulations concerning its functioning and that of any committees and workgroups."
董事会还有权任命第11条规定的委员会或工作组:“董事会可以设立委员会或工作组,这些委员会或工作组可以在董事会的职责范围内执行特定的董事会任务。第 12.1 条赋予董事会“通过有关其运作以及任何委员会和工作组运作的条例”的权力。

Finally, the board is responsible for the Foundation's finances: "The foundation must see to the proper management of its assets" (9.2).

The board's authority is cabined a little bit by Article 7: "The board is not authorized to enter into agreements for the acquisition, sale, or encumbrance of registered property, or to enter into agreements under which the foundation is committed as guarantor or joint and several debtor, warrants performance by a third party, or provides security for the debt of a third party." Basically, that's a limitation on what kinds of legal agreements and/or representations the board may enter into for the Foundation.

The board may amend the Articles themselves, as well as also dissolve the Foundation (see Article 13).

Finally, Article 15.1 is a catchall provision: "In all cases not provided for by these articles, the board decides."
最后,第 15.1 条是一个包罗万象的规定:“在这些条款未规定的所有情况下,董事会决定。


That's the Foundation's structure. It exists for the sake of the purposes enumerated in Article 2.1.
这就是基金会的结构。它的存在是为了实现第 2.1 条中列举的目的。

Now, the next question is what, precisely, the relationship is between the Foundation (the board) and the various NixOS projects that are in its orbit. In other words, what, precisely, are the contours of those orbits? I spent about an hour or two poking around through everything I could find in the Github repos and websites of the various projects (I mean Nix the language, Nixpkgs, et al.). Here's my analysis of the relationship(s) between the board and the projects:
现在,下一个问题是,基金会(董事会)与其轨道上的各种NixOS项目之间的关系究竟是什么。换句话说,这些轨道的轮廓究竟是什么?我花了大约一两个小时浏览了我在 Github 存储库和各种项目的网站上能找到的所有内容(我的意思是 Nix 语言、Nixpkgs 等)。以下是我对董事会和项目之间关系的分析:


It is literally never specified anywhere. No specific authorities or representations are granted or otherwise made. Are the NixOS "Teams" "committees or workgroups" under the board as provided by Article 11 of the Foundation's Articles of Incorporation? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Where does the oft-repeated limitation on the Foundation that the board is not responsible for technical direction come from? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There are no answers to those questions. So it's no wonder that no one seems to know exactly how to understand the Foundation's role in and relationships with the various Nix* projects. Whether it's understandable or not that this was the course taken is a separate question. I frankly don't care. But you can see that looseness and informality has come back around to bite the whole community. I wish them luck in resolving it.
这些问题没有答案。因此,难怪似乎没有人确切地知道如何理解基金会在各种 Nix* 项目中的角色和关系。这是否是可以理解的,这是一个单独的问题。坦率地说,我不在乎。但你可以看到,松散和非正式已经卷土重来,咬住了整个社区。我祝愿他们好运地解决这个问题。

Disclaimer 免責聲明

Posted Apr 29, 2024 17:07 UTC (Mon) by dmv (subscriber, #168800) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 17:07 UTC (周一) by dmv (subscriber, #168800) [ 链接]

The disclaimer I added right at the end of editing the above disappeared (no doubt user error, oops), but for the record:

(Please note that while I was a lawyer in the United States, I don't know anything at all about Dutch law.)

Nix* Governance: An Analysis
Nix* 治理:分析

Posted Apr 30, 2024 7:38 UTC (Tue) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 7:38 UTC (周二) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [ 链接]

This all seems pretty typical of the articles of association for a Dutch foundation (disclaimer: just browsed the Dutch version, looks similar to other such documents I've seen). Generally it's a template where article 2 is the only one that really changes. Sometimes there's some minor tweaks elsewhere.
这一切似乎非常典型的荷兰基金会的公司章程(免责声明:刚刚浏览了荷兰语版本,看起来与我见过的其他此类文件相似)。通常,它是一个模板,其中第 2 条是唯一真正更改的模板。有时在其他地方会有一些小的调整。

You're right, the articles do not include any specific changes regarding the NixOS community. But then, that's not necessary if the goal of the organisation was simply to be a legal entity to hold assets. In particular, there's no mention of any mechanism that would allow members of a community to exert any influence over the foundation. They could have if they wanted to, but did not.
你是对的,这些文章不包括任何关于 NixOS 社区的具体变化。但是,如果该组织的目标只是成为持有资产的法人实体,那就没有必要了。特别是,没有提到任何允许社区成员对基金会施加任何影响的机制。如果他们愿意,他们可以拥有,但没有。

Dutch Foundations ('stichtingen') are the least accountable of all the organisation types. They have no shareholders, no members, the board is only accountable to itself and anything listed in the AoA. It's possible to make amendments that don't conflict with the AoA (huishoudelijk reglement) but that seems unlikely here given the boilerplate AoA. My take is basically that the NixOS community has no relationship with the foundation other than what the board feels like. Which is kinda tricky if the foundation is organising a conference and the community disagrees with the way it is run. The community literally has no leg to stand on.
荷兰基金会('stichtingen')是所有组织类型中最不负责任的。他们没有股东,没有成员,董事会只对自己和AoA中列出的任何内容负责。可以进行与 AoA (huishoudelijk reglement) 不冲突的修改,但考虑到样板 AoA,这似乎不太可能。我的看法基本上是,NixOS社区与基金会没有任何关系,除了董事会的感觉。如果基金会正在组织会议,而社区不同意会议的运行方式,这有点棘手。社区实际上没有立足之地。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 17:56 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 17:56 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

It might be important to mention that a major contributing factor here is a heavily bias moderation culture that amplifies a singular position to create an illusion that it is much more reprasentative of the community as a whole than it actually is.

I am saying this as a long time Nix project contirbutor and author of a recent RFC to address the issues with this moderation bias, and instead of having an open discussion with me, so far I have been banned (the day after posting my RFC) and there is a long series of _ad hominem_ attacks launched freely in the github PR thread, to which I have no power to respond.
我是作为 Nix 项目的长期贡献者和最近 RFC 的作者来解决这个问题的,而不是与我进行公开讨论,到目前为止,我已被禁止(发布我的 RFC 后的第二天),并且有一长串_ad hominem_攻击在 github PR 线程中自由发起, 对此我无权回应。

This alone should illustrate the depth of the issue.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 18:25 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 18:25 UTC (周一) 由 atnot (subscriber, #124910) 发布 [ 链接]

You somehow forgot to attach said presumably perfectly reasonable thing you wrote that got you banned to your post. After reading it and some of your associated commentary and context, I understand why, and I'm indeed very glad they banned you despite the moderation dysfunction.

here it is for anyone else: https://github.com/nrdxp/rfc-evidence/blob/master/rfc_evi...

As some might not be surprised to learn, it is largely a vague screed about woke mobs and various other far right dogwhistles that goes after a bunch of contributors with thinly veiled accusations and relitigates a bunch of other dearly earned bans.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 18:36 UTC (Mon) by riking (subscriber, #95706) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 18:36 UTC (周一) by riking (subscriber, #95706) [ 链接]

"oh no scary trans person is a moderator on the link aggregator site the writers of the letter are posting it to"

Yeah okay I can ignore this person if they're making that kind of stretch.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 20:47 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 20:47 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

I'm sorry I don't see that anywhere in the document, so yeah, this is exactly the kind of mass delusion I am trying to address. Don't put words in my mouth, please and thank you. Also didn't leave any links so people could find it on their own if they are interested. Not exactly difficult to find nixos RFCs.
很抱歉,我在文档的任何地方都没有看到这一点,所以是的,这正是我试图解决的那种大规模错觉。不要把话放在我嘴里,拜托,谢谢你。也没有留下任何链接,所以如果人们感兴趣,可以自己找到它。找到 nixos RFC 并不难。

Also, if you agree that its fine to completely quash debate on a contentious issue that has been escalting for almost 5 years now, that I have sat by queitly not agitating and all, and only jumped in because I'm tired of seeing talented people silenced and leaving, then we are too far off ideologically to even argue.
此外,如果你同意完全取消对一个已经升级了近 5 年的有争议的问题的辩论是可以的,而我一直坐在一旁,没有鼓动和所有,只是因为我厌倦了看到有才华的人被沉默和离开而跳进来,那么我们在意识形态上相差太远了,甚至无法争论。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 2:29 UTC (Tue) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 2:29 UTC (星期二) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [ 链接]

I tried to read your document. I got as far as the link to srid's "unwoke" page, and gave up. If you seriously think linking to a page like that is defensible in a collaborative FOSS environment, then I don't really see much point in continuing to read your argument beyond there.
我试着阅读你的文件。我找到了 srid 的“unwake”页面的链接,然后放弃了。如果你真的认为在自由和开放源码软件的协作环境中链接到这样的页面是站得住脚的,那么我真的认为继续阅读你的论点没有多大意义。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 20:56 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 20:56 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

And actually just a bit further, there are not far right people in tech, because there are basically no right wingers in tech, so the one who is delusional is you. Nobody is immune from mistakes no matter how they identify. Identity doesn't even come into it and was never mentioned beyond the fact that it is weaponized on the other side, which it is, as you are demonstrating quite well, thank you.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 21:24 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 21:24 UTC (周一) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [ 链接]

How do you know the politics of everyone in tech? I suspect that most people in tech don't advertise their politics in tech forums. My guess would be that the politics of people in tech is broadly similar to the politics of the general population, at least based on my 30+ years of work in the tech industry.
你怎么知道科技界每个人的政治?我怀疑大多数科技界人士不会在科技论坛上宣传他们的政治。我的猜测是,科技界人士的政治与普通民众的政治大致相似,至少基于我在科技行业的 30+ 年工作。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:16 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:16 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

Indeed I would have corrected my previous statement and said there are almost no, because there is always someone, but what I am more speaking to is the endless witchhunt for all the far-right extremist that largely simply don't exist in this environment.


Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:19 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:19 UTC (周一) by corbet (editor, #1) [ 链接]

We are getting far afield again; I think that the discussion of developers' political affiliation is not really on-topic here. Let's stop now, please.


Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:28 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:28 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

I would agree, and I'm basically done here. I've said all I have to say, and it has been made quite clear that everyone is a little too touchy, specifically because nobody wants to talk about it, but if we can't do work anymore unless we do, well that's really what the RFC is all about. It's really not that hard, and we used to have the answer for this.

Just look at Google's recent firings. In any ways Google was the poster boy for all this politicing in tech for a time, if its now too far even for them, well maybe that's a real sign, and I'm not just crazy here.

You guys can continue to throw mud if you'd like. Enjoy your week.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:01 UTC (Mon) by willy (subscriber, #9762) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 29 日 22:01 UTC (周一) 由 willy (subscriber, #9762) 发布 [ 链接]

I have worked with two people who made no secret of their vote for Donald Trump (2016 and 2020). I don't think either of them were looney enough to participate in January 6th, but they're both fond of using slurs for their political opponents.
我曾与两个人一起工作,他们毫不掩饰他们对唐纳德·特朗普的投票(2016 年和 2020 年)。我不认为他们俩都足够疯狂地参加 1 月 6 日,但他们都喜欢对他们的政治对手使用诽谤。

And you can't credibly claim that ESR is not right wing.
而且你不能可信地声称 ESR 不是右翼。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:19 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:19 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

I don't condone slurs either, but I've heard plenty go completely unmoderated, which is really what this is all about. I am fairly well situated right in the middle, and probably have been for most of my life, barring a period where I was further left in my youth. From here, it all looks stupid, and it's not longer entertaining watching everyone throw shit when it is interupting real work.

I don't like extreme far right politics, but I'm not to fond of it's opposite either. Still I don't go looking for trouble, but when it is largely derailing a community I care about, that's another story. I really don't care what people's political persuasions are though, that's not what this is about. It's about a consistent bias, and moreso, a clear preference for political posturing over getting actual work done.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 13:24 UTC (Tue) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 13:24 UTC (周二) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [ 链接]

mate, a person who writes a screed full to the brim with right-wing talking points and dogwhistles was *never* situated in the centre.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:01 UTC (Mon) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:01 UTC (周一) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [ 链接]

> there are not far right people in tech, because there are basically no right wingers in tech

If only this were true. Unfortunately, there are still many, though they're thankfully less and less welcome in many Open Source projects. They're *much much* more common in corporate tech.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:18 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:18 UTC (周一) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [ 链接]

> because there are basically no right wingers in tech

This is such an obviously false and disingenuous statement that it should disqualify you from ever being taken in good faith on this web site again

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 22:25 UTC (Mon) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 22:25 UTC (周一) by nrdxp (subscriber, #142443) [ 链接]

I would say the same of yours, but if you scroll up a bit you can see a retraction. If there was an edit button on this site I would have edited it.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 29, 2024 23:46 UTC (Mon) by skissane (subscriber, #38675) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月29日 23:46 UTC (周一) by skissane (subscriber, #38675) [ 链接]

My impression, from observing this from afar, is the people claiming there is a "leadership crisis" are very political and are trying to push a project founder out because he disagrees with their politics. The primary trigger for this was a dispute over whether a conference should accept sponsorship from a company to which some community members have a moral objection. I don't think open source projects should be sidetracked by those kinds of disputes. It is also noteworthy how they claim a "consensus" had formed – even though it obviously didn't include the project founder, which makes it questionable whether it was really a "consensus" – and then when the project founder disagrees with it, this is viewed as objectionable behaviour ("relitigating"). I don't think the project founder should leave, I think the people responsible for this polticisation of an open source project should be the ones to leave.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 1:39 UTC (Tue) by Kamilion (subscriber, #42576) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 1:39 UTC (周二) by Kamilion (subscriber, #42576) [ 链接]

little more nuance when a "consensus" revolved around avoiding relationships with a military company that effectively makes weapons usable for mass murder out of FOSS legos.
当“共识”围绕着避免与一家军事公司建立关系时,就没有什么细微差别了,这家公司有效地使武器可用于 FOSS 乐高积木的大规模谋杀。

"the project founder disagrees with it" -> "I want to make money pushing weapon sales and accept blood money to put tacit recruitment banners up at our conference"
“项目创始人不同意” -> “我想通过推动武器销售赚钱,并接受血钱在我们的会议上张贴默认的招募横幅”

That visceral description changes the situation quite significantly to how you described the 10,000 foot view, absent of the politicalizing.
这种发自肺腑的描述大大改变了你所描述的 10,000 英尺视图的情况,没有政治化。

Although I respect that, strictly from the license perspective, they are free to make use of those legos, we-the-people too, are free to collectively refuse to be involved with their usage to harm others.

<s> "But that's just my opinion, and I could be Dennis Miller." </s>
<s> “但这只是我的看法,我可以成为丹尼斯·米勒。 </s>

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 3:28 UTC (Tue) by skissane (subscriber, #38675) [Link]
2024 年 4 月 30 日 3:28 UTC (周二) 由 skissane (subscriber, #38675) 发布 [ 链接]

If a legal business wants to contribute to an open source project (in whatever capacity), I don't agree with trying to stop them just because some project members have a moral objection to what that business (allegedly) does.

The fact is, different people have different moral perspectives, and a business which is viewed as highly immoral to some, will not be viewed the same way by others. Going down this path just results in one section of opinion within an open source project trying to hijack the project to force their morality on everyone else, which is a big distraction from what the project is supposed to be about (something technical, not something moral).

I think this case is especially egregious: the project founder obviously doesn't share that moral perspective, and then when the project founder pushes back against this, the response is to try to get him removed from his position in the project. Someone starts something to solve a technical problem, and now a group of activists are trying to turn it into a vehicle to push their own moral views on everybody else.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 5:58 UTC (Tue) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 5:58 UTC (周二) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [ 链接]

This could easily be solved by taking a vote.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 7:08 UTC (Tue) by skissane (subscriber, #38675) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 7:08 UTC (周二) by skissane (subscriber, #38675) [ 链接]

An open source project isn't necessarily a "one person one vote" democracy though. Many projects are set up so some people's opinions count for more than others. Generally, the opinions of people who've contributed more (whether historically or presently) tend to count more. Sometimes this is expressed through mechanisms such as giving a project founder a veto, or having a handpicked self-perpetuating leadership group. If people don't agree, they can always fork.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 15:46 UTC (Tue) by xedrac (guest, #171236) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 15:46 UTC (星期二) by xedrac (guest, #171236) [ 链接]

I never understood why an open source project would reject sponsorship, unless some serious strings were attached. I'm curious if Anduril's offer to sponsor Nix came with such strings attached, or do people simply find their work morally objectionable? If it's the latter, do those same people find it objectionable that we send weapons to Ukraine to defend against Russian invasion? I am very confused. I don't think it's fair to the Nix community to reject free resources based on a few people's strange political views.
我一直不明白为什么一个开源项目会拒绝赞助,除非附加一些严肃的条件。我很好奇安杜里尔赞助尼克斯的提议是否附带了这样的条件,或者人们只是觉得他们的工作在道德上令人反感?如果是后者,这些人是否觉得我们向乌克兰运送武器以抵御俄罗斯入侵令人反感?我很困惑。我不认为基于少数人奇怪的政治观点拒绝免费资源对 Nix 社区来说是不公平的。

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 6:47 UTC (Tue) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link]
Posted 四月 30, 2024 6:47 UTC (Tue) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [ 链接]

Maybe you don’t realize it, but weapons can be both offensive and defensive, and without defensive weaponry, once a bad actor enters your place with the intent to kill you, you are toast.

In this case, the refusal “to harm others” is exposing many innocent lives to harm by people who do their thing and perceive your moral high ground as a weakness.

The peacewashing rhetoric you are using is so one-sided and completely blind to the world we are living in that it alone would make me side with Mr. Dolstra, despite any and all his alleged shortcomings as a community builder.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 5:16 UTC (Tue) by rgb (subscriber, #57129) [Link]
Posted 2024年4月30日 5:16 UTC (周二) by rgb (subscriber, #57129) [ 链接]

Since much of the development of internet technology was funded by the DOD maybe we should all just unplug our TCP/IP stack right now. Cut your network cables, drown your smart phones and enjoy the silence.

A leadership crisis in the Nix community

Posted Apr 30, 2024 8:18 UTC (Tue) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link]
Posted 四月 30, 2024 8:18 UTC (Tue) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [ 链接]

I see what you want to say, but it still somehow is making me feel wistful.

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