I will believe when I will see it, too many 'we will do that big thing in future' and almost zero real results, in past, from this country/regime. Although we need competition.
我会等看到它的时候再相信，这个国家/政权过去说了太多“我们会在未来做这件事”而几乎没有任何实际成果。虽然我们需要竞争。

at what cost? at what cost....
代价是多少？代价是多少....

duckfaceat what cost? at what cost....
代价是多少？代价是多少....

I suppose that You wish to buy EUV instrument and search for who sale it cheaper. If machine from Huawei is 1/2 from ASML prices, You will buy chinese offer?
我想你想要购买 EUV 设备并且在寻找哪个卖得更便宜。如果华为的机器是 ASML 价格的一半，你会选择中国的报价吗？

Nah I would never buy the Chinese one. Too many back doors like all the devices here in our country. AKA the dumbest country in the history of humanity. Nice job building up your enemy for cash. I would trust me 2 ex wives to tell me the truth that them I'll tell ya. Enjoy your backdoors you all.
Nah 我永远不会买中国的那个。这里的所有设备都有太多的后门。也就是历史上最愚蠢的国家。靠出卖敌人赚钱干得不错。我甚至会相信我前两个妻子告诉我真相，然后我再告诉你。你们这些后门，好好享受吧。

It's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.
这些制裁措施实际上促使中国追赶自己的技术，这真是讽刺。

JismIt's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.
这些制裁措施实际上促使中国追赶自己的技术，真是讽刺。

More interesting is how much anti China trolls including new was activated immediately to write BS. Must clean and lock.
更多有趣的是，反华 trolls 包括新加入的立刻被激活来编写虚假信息。必须清理和封锁。

JismIt's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.
这些制裁措施实际上促使中国追赶自己的技术，真是讽刺。

define "their own" :laugh:
定义“他们自己的” :laugh:

piguliciI will believe when I will see it, too many 'we will do that big thing in future' and almost zero real results, in past, from this country/regime. Although we need competition.

Chinese are more often words than results, but Huawei is not a joke. If Huawei is behind it, it's probably closer to reality than just an empty press release.

About competition. I doubt the Chinese will sell it abroad. If it works and if it offers advantages over ASML's machines, they will probably keep it in China and forbid selling it out of China. Except if US starts lifting it's bans, that I doubt it will happen any time soon.

Scrizzdefine "their own" :laugh:

Well enough to at some point being equivalent or even better then western tech.

and then what? Sanctions won't help when they are capable of designing their own CPU's and GPU's at this point for heavy AI work.

That's what this race is all about.

Scrizzdefine "their own" :laugh:

China in 10 years - "All your lithography are belong to us!" ...but to steer back on topic this isn't surprising but kind of surprising at the same time. China is and has been constantly trying to improve it's technological position and not be limited by external sources. The question for the moment is how will markets react?

EUV is much more than EUV light. They have no chances for more years

Is it fair to say that this is nothing more than Chinese propaganda?
Or... perhaps the result of hard, honest work for the greater good of humanity, and nothing more, right?
ASML: Dutch chip firm says former China employee stole data | CNN Business

TheEndIsNearNah I would never buy the Chinese one. Too many back doors like all the devices here in our country. AKA the dumbest country in the history of humanity. Nice job building up your enemy for cash. I would trust me 2 ex wives to tell me the truth that them I'll tell ya. Enjoy your backdoors you all.

It's an EUV machine. That's like saying you don't trust a Chinese microwave because it has back doors. :kookoo:

As usual, we have the standard anti-PRC brigade to claim they're just lying and it will never happen. Does the PRC lie? Yes. The thing is,the PRC lies about how much progress it makes - _but it eventually makes that progress_.

That's what has been said about literally every technological advance that the PRC has made that was supposedly impossible for them. The West's casual bigotry is what is allowing the PRC to eat it piece by piece.

JismIt's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.

Bingo. Globalism prevents war because it creates interdependence... when you remove that interdependence, you remove the safeguards against war.

CosmicWandererIt's an EUV machine. That's like saying you don't trust a Chinese microwave because it has back doors. :kookoo:

Ignore the anti-PRC shills, they are really just the most braindead of bigots with zero critical thinking facilities.

JismIt's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.

It's not, I've repeatedly stated in the past this was gonna happen and summarily dismissed, sanction them hard enough and it's only a matter of time until their technology advancements branch out and - eventually - leapfrog the West's. I have a lot more to talk about this, but it's all political and none of it very nice, so I'm giving it a pass - looks like @Assimilator covered the basics of it anyway.

Cool, we need more high end HBM manufacturers.
And a whole new ISA would be nice too

Good news!

Well, we'll have to see if this is another case of China overpromising and underperforming. They remind me of these three companies that we all know of

So this time there is no "84 year old grandma handmade computer chip" ?

The cool thing about all of this is that they can run it themselves, they don't need the cooperation of like 6 countries to make it work.

It's only a question of time before they fully catch up.

Crying about Chinese backdoors when, merely a few weeks ago, security for an entire country (continent? world?) was compromised because some of the "good" governments were demanding backdoors, is amusing...

Anyways, to reiterate what I said in a previous, related news thread: This is what some of y'all look like rn:

Time to do a little reading, and maybe draw some conclusions.

December 2023, Huawei "breaks the 5nm barrier"
Note that the article calls out using triple or quadruple patterning. No notation on those 5 nm chips taking twice as long to produce...but whatever.
DUV used to produce 5nm chips...with the predictable errors and slag produced due to compounding errors
So...on paper claiming 5nm chips, but using old tech with much increased production time and increased errors.
2022 patent for the tech...
Paper mills, the ban on further DUV machines, and research quality


Do I believe that China will "catch-up" to the west? No. Do I believe that they will develop some sort of lithographic tech they claim to be 5 nm, do victory laps, and find that the yields and quality of their cutting edge tech are suddenly no as good? Yeah. There is a future where China, by way of the CCP, throw enough cash at developing stuff that something manages to be produced that isn't an absolute dumpster fire. My problem with the CCP is that to make that happen they are going to have to plow 20-30x as many resources into the system to get it to come out. That isn't a guess by the way, it's the base cost, 60% skimmed directly off the top to bribe people, 20% lost on middle-man transactions, 10% lost in inefficiency, and 5% lost to people not giving a crap because the industry is too big to fail and thus getting fired means nothing as long as the numbers can be manipulated.


Do I wish ASML didn't have a monopoly? Yes. Do I believe that the CCP can develop something that competes? No.
High Speed rail. Youtube video for those who hate reading
Tofu Dregs Different source, same outcome. Also a video
C919...in all it's failure. Boeing is not doing better, so don't chalk that up to the west being better. Chalk it up to race to the bottom, cut all other manufacturers out of the market tactics as inherently hostile and idiotic: 1400 claimed ordered, 11 per year finished, and the plan is to add a second factory and get to 150 per year. Gotta love that China only list of operators. C919 failures, airbus replacement. In 2024. The oldest of these planes is two years old.
Of course, for the world's manufacturing hub you'd expect them to move some weapons. Planes...nope Why the J20 is not being sold. Naval assets? Better learn German German diesel engines for Chinese warships and subs. Yeah, Germany supplies a crap ton of Diesel engines...and when you want something that works you obviously go German.

I can spend literal hours going through this and highlighting anything complex and complicated being beyond the CCP...even if they are flush with doctorate level scholars, because the problem is not the resources. The problem is that the CCP uses them badly. That's apparently just "hate for asia" so I guess I'm a racist then. It's not like Vietnam, Taiwan, and other countries exist in Asia. It's not like the CCP is speed running through late stage capitalistic rot, without the supportive morality that prevents it (to some extent, and in a protected version of capitalism). Yeah, that paper from 2022, with a patent that probably was entirely derived from a western education or source, will absolutely make things happen. It'd be the first time in history it ever did, but I've got a good feeling that this isn't another one of the 11,000 companies that failed in 2023.
Tech insight, chip manufacturer failures in 2023
When the CCP dies, and China gets to compete as a truly peer nation, assuming there's anybody left, then the west should fear China. Until that day comes, I treat their claims as substantive as a fart in a windstorm.

I think some people are facing the rude awakening that the China isn't just stealing Western tech and lying about their tech advancements.

Sure, they still do that, but science and technology have for long been a high focus of the country, with huge investments in education and research - something that we can't even pronounce any more. This resulted in China surpassing all other nations in number of scientists, scientific papers, patent applications... In some areas their development has overtaken Western world already, and the only tools we use to combat this is not advancing on our own, but seeking to stop their advancement or at least stop the products coming to the West, with various bans and tariffs - which of course helps lower their revenue, but ultimately this will only deepen the divide in time.

Interconnected West also has it's vulnerabilities in current climate of screwing over allies, but this is purely political - but that doesn't mean it won't have large influence in tech industry.

lilhasselhofferTime to do a little reading, and maybe draw some conclusions.

December 2023, Huawei "breaks the 5nm barrier"
Note that the article calls out using triple or quadruple patterning. No notation on those 5 nm chips taking twice as long to produce...but whatever.
DUV used to produce 5nm chips...with the predictable errors and slag produced due to compounding errors
So...on paper claiming 5nm chips, but using old tech with much increased production time and increased errors.
2022 patent for the tech...
Paper mills, the ban on further DUV machines, and research quality


Do I believe that China will "catch-up" to the west? No. Do I believe that they will develop some sort of lithographic tech they claim to be 5 nm, do victory laps, and find that the yields and quality of their cutting edge tech are suddenly no as good? Yeah. There is a future where China, by way of the CCP, throw enough cash at developing stuff that something manages to be produced that isn't an absolute dumpster fire. My problem with the CCP is that to make that happen they are going to have to plow 20-30x as many resources into the system to get it to come out. That isn't a guess by the way, it's the base cost, 60% skimmed directly off the top to bribe people, 20% lost on middle-man transactions, 10% lost in inefficiency, and 5% lost to people not giving a crap because the industry is too big to fail and thus getting fired means nothing as long as the numbers can be manipulated.


Do I wish ASML didn't have a monopoly? Yes. Do I believe that the CCP can develop something that competes? No.
High Speed rail. Youtube video for those who hate reading
Tofu Dregs Different source, same outcome. Also a video
C919...in all it's failure. Boeing is not doing better, so don't chalk that up to the west being better. Chalk it up to race to the bottom, cut all other manufacturers out of the market tactics as inherently hostile and idiotic: 1400 claimed ordered, 11 per year finished, and the plan is to add a second factory and get to 150 per year. Gotta love that China only list of operators. C919 failures, airbus replacement. In 2024. The oldest of these planes is two years old.
Of course, for the world's manufacturing hub you'd expect them to move some weapons. Planes...nope Why the J20 is not being sold. Naval assets? Better learn German German diesel engines for Chinese warships and subs. Yeah, Germany supplies a crap ton of Diesel engines...and when you want something that works you obviously go German.

I can spend literal hours going through this and highlighting anything complex and complicated being beyond the CCP...even if they are flush with doctorate level scholars, because the problem is not the resources. The problem is that the CCP uses them badly. That's apparently just "hate for asia" so I guess I'm a racist then. It's not like Vietnam, Taiwan, and other countries exist in Asia. It's not like the CCP is speed running through late stage capitalistic rot, without the supportive morality that prevents it (to some extent, and in a protected version of capitalism). Yeah, that paper from 2022, with a patent that probably was entirely derived from a western education or source, will absolutely make things happen. It'd be the first time in history it ever did, but I've got a good feeling that this isn't another one of the 11,000 companies that failed in 2023.
Tech insight, chip manufacturer failures in 2023
When the CCP dies, and China gets to compete as a truly peer nation, assuming there's anybody left, then the west should fear China. Until that day comes, I treat their claims as substantive as a fart in a windstorm.

Lol, Boeing nEvEr fails.

And what exactly failed about HSR, as in 70% of HSR in the world is failing how? Japan is failing to build HSR in both India and Vietnam but you don't seem to care.

Also who is supplying Chinese Nuclear Powered submarines, destroyers and soon carriers? Why would the Chinese be bothered with diesel? If you want ***cheap reliable outdated fossil technology***, you go German.