Lenny's Newsletter
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
LENNY'S 播客：產品 |成長 |生涯
Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma)
願景、信念和炒作：如何在公司內部建立 0 比 1 |米希卡·卡普爾（Figma的產品）
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Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma)
願景、信念和炒作：如何在公司內部建立 0 比 1 |米希卡·卡普爾（Figma的產品）

Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
Apr 21, 2024 4月21， 2024
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Transcript 抄本
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
0:00
I asked on Twitter, "Who's the best product manager you've worked with?"
我在Twitter上問道：「誰是你合作過的最好的產品經理？
0:03
You were the most mentioned.
你是被提及最多的。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
0:04
My take is that your scope is the world.
我的看法是，你的範圍就是世界。
0:07
Nothing should ever perceive as being out of bounds.
任何事情都不應該被認為是越界的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
0:10
VP of product at Figma told me, "Mahika is really great at creating a vision and getting people to see what she sees."
Figma 的產品副總裁告訴我，“Mahika 非常擅長創造願景並讓人們看到她所看到的東西。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
0:16
We lean heavily into designing and prototyping even before a project gets a green light.
我們甚至在項目獲得批准之前就非常依賴設計和原型製作。
0:22
If you and your team do your job correctly, what does the world look like?
如果你和你的團隊正確地完成了你的工作，世界會是什麼樣子？
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
0:26
Say somebody wants to make their culture more entrepreneurial, what does it take?
假設有人想讓他們的文化更具創業精神，這需要什麼？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
0:31
We have this concept called Maker Week, which is our internal hackathon, giving people the breathing space to see ahead into the horizon and be wildly ambitious.
我們有一個概念叫做「創客周」，這是我們內部的駭客馬拉松，給人們喘息的空間，讓他們看到未來的地平線，並雄心勃勃。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
0:43
Today, my guest is Mahika Kapoor.
今天，我的嘉賓是瑪希卡·卡普爾。
0:45
Mahika is a design engineering PM hybrid at Figma, where she was an early PM on FigJam, and is now spearheading development of a new product that the company's going to launch in June.
Mahika 是 Figma 的一名設計工程 PM 混合體，她是 FigJam 的早期 PM，現在正在帶頭開發公司將於 6 月推出的新產品。
0:55
She's known as the go-to person at Figma for leading new zero-to-one products.
她被稱為 Figma 領導新的零到一產品的首選人物。
0:59
And as you'll hear in our conversation, is beloved by everybody that works with her.
正如您將在我們的談話中聽到的那樣，她受到所有與她一起工作的人的喜愛。
1:03
Prior to Figma, Mahika founded Design Nation, a national nonprofit that democratizes undergraduate student access to a design education, and led several products and launches at Meta, focused on commerce and creators.
在加入 Figma 之前，Mahika 創立了 Design Nation，這是一家全國性非營利組織，旨在讓本科生接受設計教育的機會民主化，並在 Meta 領導了多款產品和發佈會，專注於商業和創作者。
1:16
On this podcast, I bring on a lot of amazing senior product leaders, but there's so much we can learn from stellar on-the-ground product managers like Mahika.
在這個播客中，我邀請了很多了不起的高級產品領導者，但我們可以從像Mahika這樣的一流產品經理那裡學到很多東西。
1:25
In our conversation, we drill into many of the skills that Mahika has cultivated that have contributed to her success, including how to develop a compelling vision, get buy-in for your ideas, how to develop conviction, empathy, the importance of culture, and how to create a culture on your team and within the company, and also how to deal with the constant change that happens within successful organizations.
在我們的談話中，我們深入探討了 Mahika 培養的許多技能，這些技能為她的成功做出了貢獻，包括如何制定令人信服的願景、獲得對您想法的認可、如何培養信念、同理心、文化的重要性，以及如何在團隊和公司內部創造一種文化，以及如何應對成功組織內發生的不斷變化。
1:47
We also spent a bunch of time on how to effectively bring new ideas in your company from zero to one to launch, including getting to a bunch of the stories behind some of Figma's most successful products and features, and how many of them began at hackathons and Maker Weeks.
我們還花了大量時間研究如何有效地將公司中的新想法從零到一，包括瞭解 Figma 一些最成功的產品和功能背後的一系列故事，以及其中有多少是從駭客馬拉松和創客周開始的。
2:01
Mahika is a truly special product manager and leader, and I feel fortunate to have had this chance to learn from her.
Mahika 是一位非常特別的產品經理和領導者，我很幸運能有這個機會向她學習。
2:07
We went quite long on this conversation, but honestly, this could have gone for another two hours.
我們在這次談話中花了很長時間，但老實說，這本可以再持續兩個小時。
2:12
With that, I bring you Mahika Kapoor, after a short word from our sponsors.
說到這裡，我給大家帶來瑪希卡·卡普爾，在我們的贊助商簡短的發言之後。
2:17
And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜歡這個播客，請不要忘記在您最喜歡的播客應用程式或YouTube中訂閱並關注它。
2:22
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
這是避免錯過未來劇集的最佳方法，對播客有很大説明。
2:29
This episode is brought to you by Paragon, the embedded integration platform for B2B SaaS product development teams.
本集由 B2B SaaS 產品開發團隊的嵌入式整合平臺 Paragon 為您帶來。
2:36
Are your users constantly requesting new integrations with other SaaS platforms that they use?
您的使用者是否不斷請求與他們使用的其他 SaaS 平台進行新的整合？
2:41
Unfortunately, native product integrations take months of engineering to build, and the maintenance never ends.
不幸的是，原生產品集成需要數月的工程設計才能構建，而且維護永無止境。
2:47
Paragon enables your engineering team to ship integrations seven times faster than building in-house by removing the complexities around authentication, messy third-party APIs, and debugging integration errors.
Paragon 通過消除身份驗證、混亂的第三方 API 和調試集成錯誤的複雜性，使您的工程團隊能夠以比內部構建更快 7 倍的速度交付集成。
3:01
Engineering teams at companies like Copy.ai, Cinch, TLDB, and over 100 other SaaS companies are using Paragon so they can focus their efforts on core product features, not integrations.
Copy.ai、Cinch、TLDB 和其他 100 多家 SaaS 公司的工程團隊正在使用 Paragon，這樣他們就可以將精力集中在核心產品功能上，而不是集成上。
3:13
The result? 結果呢？
3:14
Their shipping integrations on demand, which has led to higher product usage, better retention, and more customer upsells.
他們的按需運輸集成，這導致了更高的產品使用率、更好的保留率和更多的客戶追加銷售。
3:21
Visit useparagon.com/lenny to see how Paragon can help you go to market faster with integrations today.
訪問 useparagon.com/lenny，瞭解Paragon如何通過今天的集成説明您更快地進入市場。
3:28
That's useparagon. 這就是useparagon。
3:30
com/lenny. com/lenny。
3:33
This episode is brought to you by Lenny's Job Board.
本集由 Lenny's Job Board 為您帶來。
3:36
As many of you may or may not know, for the past couple of years I've been running a recruiting service.
你們中的許多人可能知道也可能不知道，在過去的幾年裡，我一直在經營招聘服務。
3:41
I've introduced over 30 companies to their next hire and helped build a candidate pipeline for tons more.
我已經向 30 多家公司介紹了他們的下一個員工，並説明建立了更多的候選人管道。
3:46
I've been fortunate to work with companies like Ramp, Figma, Shopify, many more, plus a bunch of exciting young startups connecting each to extremely talented engineers, designers, and product leaders that make up my community.
我很幸運能與Ramp、Figma、Shopify等公司合作，還有一群令人興奮的年輕初創公司，他們將每家公司與構成我社區的非常有才華的工程師、設計師和產品負責人聯繫起來。
3:58
Because of its success and the value that it's driven to companies and to people looking for jobs, we're ramping up the service in a big way.
由於它的成功以及它為公司和尋找工作的人帶來的價值，我們正在大力提升這項服務。
4:05
I'm beta testing a bespoke headhunting style service and I'm opening up a handful of slots.
我正在測試一項定製的獵頭風格服務，我正在開放一些插槽。
4:10
We work with a select group of companies each month.
我們每個月都會與一組精選的公司合作。
4:12
If you need to make a key product hire or quickly expand your team, I'd love to see if I can help head to Lennysjobs.com/talent and hit meet candidates to get started lennysjobs.com/talent.
如果您需要招聘關鍵產品或快速擴大您的團隊，我很想看看我是否可以説明前往 Lennysjobs.com/talent 並點擊與候選人會面以開始 lennysjobs.com/talent。
4:29
Mahika, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Mahika，非常感謝您來到這裏，歡迎來到播客。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
4:33
Thank you for having me, Lenny.
謝謝你邀請我，萊尼。
4:34
I am a huge fan of the podcast and really excited to be chatting today.
我是播客的忠實粉絲，今天能聊到我。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
4:39
Just to set expectations, this is going to be a Mahika love-fest podcast.
只是為了設定期望，這將是一個Mahika愛情節播客。
4:42
And what I want to try to do with our time here is have an archeology of Mahika to understand what you've learned about product and building product, in particular because you are thriving at Figma, which is one of the most interesting and successful tech companies in the world with one of the best product teams in the world.
我想利用我們的時間對 Mahika 進行考古學，以瞭解你對產品和構建產品的瞭解，特別是因為你在 Figma 蓬勃發展，這是世界上最有趣和最成功的科技公司之一，擁有世界上最好的產品團隊之一。
5:02
So, basically, I just want to learn as much as I can from what you've learned and what you've done in order to create more Mahikas in the world.
所以，基本上，我只是想盡可能多地從你所學到的東西和你所做的事情中學習，以便在世界上創造更多的Mahikas。
5:09
That's kind of my goal here because I feel like that would [inaudible 00:05:11].
這就是我在這裡的目標，因為我覺得這會 [聽不清 00：05：11]。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
5:11
Mildly frightening. 有點嚇人。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
5:14
In a very cool way, not in a creepy way.
以一種非常酷的方式，而不是以一種令人毛骨悚然的方式。
5:18
So, what I did to prep for this conversation is I, as I said, reached out to a bunch of your colleagues at Figma to ask what you're especially strong at.
所以，我為這次談話所做的準備是，正如我所說，我聯繫了你在 Figma 的一群同事，詢問你特別擅長什麼。
5:26
And what I want to do is kind of go through some of these key skills, and they're essentially the core attributes of great product managers and learn from you, learn from what you learned about how doing these things well, and just what you do to be successful at these things.
我想做的是了解這些關鍵技能中的一些，它們本質上是優秀產品經理的核心屬性，向你學習，從你所學到的關於如何做好這些事情，以及你如何在這些事情上取得成功。
5:38
How does that sound? 聽起來怎麼樣？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
5:40
That sounds good. 這聽起來不錯。
5:42
One thing to call out is that I think when I think about my own PM style, it's definitely not a tick-all-the-boxes style.
需要指出的一件事是，我認為當我考慮自己的 PM 風格時，它絕對不是一種打勾的風格。
5:50
There are plenty of things that I'm very bad at that PMs are traditionally supposed to be great at, so happy to chat about what makes sense.
有很多我非常不擅長的事情，傳統上PM應該擅長，所以很高興聊聊有意義的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
5:59
Okay, that's actually really cool.
好吧，這真的很酷。
6:00
So, let's save that for the end, the things you think you're bad at.
所以，讓我們把它留到最後，你認為自己不擅長的事情。
6:03
The way I see this is a reverse performance review.
在我看來，這是一種反向績效評估。
6:05
Here's all the things you're amazing at, let's just go spend all our time on that.
這是你最擅長的所有事情，讓我們把所有的時間都花在上面。
6:09
But I think that's going to be really important.
但我認為這真的很重要。
6:10
But just along those lines, what I'm hearing is there's a sense of do the things you are good at really well.
但沿著這些思路，我聽到的是，有一種感覺，那就是把你擅長的事情做好。
6:17
This is a trend on the podcast, is lean into your strengths.
這是播客上的一種趨勢，是靠自己的優勢。
6:20
Is that the way you see it?
你是這樣看的嗎？
6:21
Do you have thoughts along those lines of just the fact that you've been successful, knowing you have these things you're not amazing at?
你有沒有這樣的想法，因為你已經成功了，知道你擁有這些你並不擅長的東西？
6:26
Then we'll talk. 然後我們再談。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
6:27
It's important to have two things.
有兩件事很重要。
6:30
One is of course lean into your strengths.
當然，一個是依靠你的優勢。
6:33
I think that PMing is traditionally a sort of generalist role and people fall into it in a number of ways.
我認為 PMing 傳統上是一種多面手角色，人們會以多種方式陷入其中。
6:41
But most often than not, I hear people fall into it by trying a bunch of other things and then realizing that, "Oh, hey, maybe this PM thing makes more sense for me."
但大多數情況下，我聽到人們通過嘗試一堆其他東西來陷入其中，然後意識到，“哦，嘿，也許這個 PM 的事情對我來說更有意義。
6:52
So, for me personally, it was I have always been a very left brain, right brain kind of a person.
所以，就我個人而言，我一直是一個非常左腦、右腦的人。
6:58
I majored in CS and minored in visual arts.
我主修計算機科學，輔修視覺藝術。
7:02
And when I worked as a software engineer, I really missed the design side, and when I worked as a designer, I missed the technical.
當我擔任軟體工程師時，我真的很想念設計方面，當我擔任設計師時，我錯過了技術方面。
7:08
And moving into product was a really great way to kind of straddle both and have more touch points across the product development cycle.
進入產品領域是一種非常好的方式，可以跨越兩者，並在整個產品開發週期中擁有更多的接觸點。
7:16
And so, I think that based on how you fell into it, you might have different spikes and different strengths and leaning into those is really important.
所以，我認為，根據你是如何陷入其中的，你可能有不同的尖峰和不同的優勢，而依靠這些真的很重要。
7:23
But for the other things, it's also of course important to have a growth mindset and to constantly be conquering what comes next.
但對於其他事情，擁有成長的心態並不斷征服接下來的事情當然也很重要。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
7:32
Okay, cool. 好吧，很酷。
7:32
Okay, so I'll save the stuff you think you're bad at for later.
好吧，那我就把你認為自己不擅長的東西留到以後再說。
7:34
Let's start with the stuff you're basic at.
讓我們從你最基本的東西開始。
7:36
Okay. 好。
7:36
So, the first is vision.
所以，首先是願景。
7:38
So, Sho Kuwamoto, VP of product at Figma told me that, "Mahika is really great at creating a vision and getting people to see what she sees.
因此，Figma 產品副總裁 Sho Kuwamoto 告訴我，“Mahika 非常擅長創造願景並讓人們看到她所看到的東西。
7:47
She's working on a new project now and put together one of the best pitches I've ever seen internally at what it could become, why it'd be differentiated, et cetera.
她現在正在做一個新專案，並整理了我在內部見過的最好的推介之一，關於它可能變成什麼樣子，為什麼它會與眾不同，等等。
7:55
And like every new project, this had up and downs, but she's incredibly driven to keep the flame alive throughout these ups and downs."
就像每個新項目一樣，這個專案有起有落，但她非常有動力在這些起起落落中保持火焰的活力。
8:03
Can you just talk about what you've learned about doing this well, creating a compelling vision, getting people excited, getting buy-in for big ideas?
你能談談你學到了什麼，如何做好這件事，創造一個令人信服的願景，讓人們興奮，獲得對大創意的支援嗎？
Mihika Kapoor
8:12
Yeah, absolutely. 是的，絕對地。
8:13
So, my take is that vision is everything.
所以，我的看法是，願景就是一切。
8:19
It is really important to create a vision that you believe in, that your team believes in and that your company believes in.
創造一個你相信的願景，你的團隊相信，你的公司相信，這真的很重要。
8:27
Because the reality of the product development cycle is that it's so messy, it's so chaotic.
因為產品開發周期的現實是，它是如此混亂，它是如此混亂。
8:32
You're going to have extreme highs and extreme lows.
你會有極端的高潮和極端的低谷。
8:36
You're going to march in a certain direction only to hear from your users that it might just be the wrong direction, and totally pivot.
你要朝著某個方向前進，卻從你的用戶那裡聽到它可能只是錯誤的方向，並且完全轉向。
8:44
And in order to ensure that moments that are not discouraging, but rather, learning opportunities for your team team, it's so important to be anchored on that singular vision because then any step along the way feels like forward progress.
為了確保這些時刻不會令人沮喪，而是為您的團隊團隊提供學習機會，錨定在這個單一的願景上非常重要，因為這樣一路上的任何一步都感覺像是向前邁進。
9:03
So, first, just want to underscore the importance of having that vision and that perspective on if you and your team do your job correctly what does the world look like?
所以，首先，只想強調擁有這種願景和觀點的重要性，如果你和你的團隊正確地完成了你的工作，世界會是什麼樣子？
9:15
In terms of crafting a compelling vision, I think that there's sort of a few aspects.
在制定一個令人信服的願景方面，我認為有幾個方面。
9:22
The first is that you cannot go into a vacuum and come out with a compelling vision that does not exist.
首先，你不能進入真空，拿出一個不存在的令人信服的願景。
9:29
You have to be fundamentally inseparable from your users, and also, fundamentally inseparable from your team.
你必須從根本上與你的使用者密不可分，而且，從根本上與你的團隊密不可分。
9:38
And so, I think that there is sort of this important cross-pollination of functions that is really important in crafting a compelling vision.
因此，我認為這種重要的功能交叉授粉對於制定一個令人信服的願景非常重要。
9:49
You want to always ensure that there are research insights that help you feel what a user is feeling.
你要始終確保有研究見解來説明你感受使用者的感受。
9:58
You want to ensure that there are beautiful designs and prototypes that help communicate what this future world looks like, and you also want to root it in engineering and feasibility.
你要確保有漂亮的設計和原型來説明傳達這個未來世界的樣子，你也想把它植根於工程和可行性。
10:09
And you want to be constantly, even in the vision phase, assuring that what you're marching after is something that is achievable and something that you can work towards.
即使在願景階段，你也要不斷確保你所追求的是可以實現的，是你可以努力實現的。
10:21
And so, I think a lot of folks when they think about visioning, they kind of think about, "Okay, how do we start from scratch and learn about the user and then translate that into designs and then translate that into engineering?"
所以，我認為很多人在考慮願景時，他們會想，「好吧，我們如何從頭開始，瞭解用戶，然後將其轉化為設計，然後轉化為工程？
10:33
And it becomes this very almost linear process.
10:36
And I think that to the extent that you can have this cross-pollination of ideas and people working together, that leads to a really strong vision.
我認為，在某種程度上，你可以讓這種思想和人們一起工作的異花授粉，這會帶來一個非常強大的願景。
10:44
And there's this book that I love called The Medici Effect, which basically talks about how when people come from different places and you have that confluence of ideas, that leads to innovation at the end of the day.
有一本我很喜歡的書叫《美第奇效應》，它基本上講的是當人們來自不同的地方時，你有各種想法的匯合，最終會帶來創新。
10:56
The second piece is, okay, once you have your vision, once you have talked to your users and built up your perspective and things like that, it's like how do you communicate it internally and how do you help everyone around you see what you're seeing?
第二部分是，好吧，一旦你有了你的願景，一旦你與你的使用者交談並建立了你的觀點和類似的東西，就像你如何在內部溝通，你如何幫助周圍的每個人看到你所看到的？
11:10
And I think something that's really unique about Figma is that it is a fundamentally very, very detail-oriented culture.
我認為 Figma 的獨特之處在於，它從根本上講是一種非常非常注重細節的文化。
11:17
And it's also a company that very much practices what it preaches in terms of the future being visual communication.
它也是一家非常實踐它所宣揚的未來是視覺傳達的公司。
11:24
And so, I've found that words will only get you so far.
所以，我發現言語只能讓你走得更遠。
11:30
So, when I put together a vision with my team at Figma, it's all about not just your traditional, "Okay, here are pain points.
因此，當我與我在 Figma 的團隊一起制定願景時，這不僅僅是關於您的傳統，“好吧，這裡有一些痛點。
11:41
And then, here are solutions.
然後，這裡有解決方案。
11:44
And then, here is the timeline and costing."
然後，這裡是時程表和成本核算。
11:46
But rather how can you bring all of those things together and how can a vision pitch effectively be pain point, solution, proof point, pain point solution proof point?
而是，你如何把所有這些東西結合在一起，願景推銷如何有效地成為痛點、解決方案、證明點、痛點解決方案的證明點？
11:58
Because at the end of the day, simply describing a product idea in words is not as compelling as seeing a testimonial from a user on top of a prototype or a mock, and really feeling the pain points.
因為歸根結底，簡單地用文字描述一個產品創意並不像在原型或類比之上看到用戶的推薦，並真正感受到痛點那樣令人信服。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
12:12
Is there an example that we could talk about?
有沒有我們可以談談的例子？
12:14
I know you can't talk about the product you're working on yet, but from the past of a vision that you crafted maybe to share what the vision was or how you came to that to make this even more real?
我知道你還不能談論你正在開發的產品，但從你制定的願景的過去來看，也許可以分享這個願景是什麼，或者你是如何實現這個願景的，讓它更加真實？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
12:24
So, before I was working on the new product, I was working on the FigJam team, and I was an early member of the FigJam team.
所以，在我開發新產品之前，我在 FigJam 團隊工作，我是 FigJam 團隊的早期成員。
12:34
And whiteboarding was something that really took off during the pandemic because it was the first time that people were not together in office, couldn't jam together, couldn't just throw up a whiteboard behind them physically.
在大流行期間，白板是真正起飛的東西，因為這是人們第一次不在辦公室里在一起，不能擠在一起，不能只是在他們身後扔一塊白板。
12:52
And so, there was kind of this question of, okay, how do you combat these disparate teammates and pull them together into a common space?
所以，有一個問題，好吧，你如何對抗這些不同的隊友，並把他們拉到一個共同的空間裡？
13:03
And I think that when we think about FigJam and what success might look like for FigJam, a part of it that I was really invested in was the meetings experience.
我認為，當我們想到 FigJam 以及 FigJam 的成功可能是什麼樣子時，我真正投入其中的一部分是會議體驗。
13:15
And specifically, what the world would look like if we were successful at bringing people together into a common space?
具體來說，如果我們成功地將人們聚集在一個共同的空間中，世界會是什麼樣子？
13:23
And one of the early insights was, okay, what is the most common meeting that takes place in a FigJam file?
早期的見解之一是，好吧，在 FigJam 檔中發生的最常見的會議是什麼？
13:31
It's a brainstorm, right?
這是一場頭腦風暴，對吧？
13:32
It's like you have a bunch of people, you've coming together and they're dropping a bunch of stickies and stuff like that.
這就像你有一群人，你走到一起，他們丟了一堆貼紙之類的東西。
13:37
And so, you have this proof point of an activity that works really well inside of a FigJam file.
因此，您有了一個在 FigJam 檔中運行良好的活動的證明點。
13:44
But then, at the same time, something that's really interesting about FigJam, people often ask, "Oh, you guys are Figma.
但與此同時，FigJam 非常有趣的地方是，人們經常問，“哦，你們是 Figma。
13:51
How do you guys use Figma as a company?"
你們如何使用 Figma 作為一家公司？
13:53
And it's kind of interesting because I feel like we use Figma the way that everyone uses Figma, but we use FigJam on steroids.
這有點有趣，因為我覺得我們使用 Figma 的方式就像每個人都使用 Figma 一樣，但我們在類固醇上使用 FigJam。
14:00
Every single activity in this company is done in FigJam.
這家公司的每一項活動都是在 FigJam 中完成的。
14:04
Our product reviews are in there, our Gantt charts are in there, our bug bashes are in there.
我們的產品評論在那裡，我們的甘特圖在那裡，我們的錯誤抨擊在那裡。
14:08
Every single thing is in FigJam.
每一樣東西都在 FigJam 中。
14:10
And there was this gap between the way that we were using FigJam as a company and the way that the rest of the world was using it, but brainstorms were working.
我們作為一家公司使用 FigJam 的方式和世界其他地方使用它的方式之間存在差距，但頭腦風暴正在發揮作用。
14:18
And so, you kind of think, "Okay, what's unique about a brainstorm?"
所以，你會想，「好吧，頭腦風暴有什麼獨特之處？
14:21
And you talk to your users and you're like, "Why does a brainstorm make so much more sense in a FigJam file than anything else?"
你和你的使用者交談時，你會想，「為什麼頭腦風暴在 FigJam 檔中比其他任何事情都更有意義？
14:26
And what it comes down to is brainstorms are this incredibly democratizing process.
歸根結底，頭腦風暴就是這個令人難以置信的民主化過程。
14:32
It's this process where ideas can come from anywhere, where it's not the loudest or the most important person in the room who's doing the talking, but it's everyone altogether.
在這個過程中，想法可以來自任何地方，不是房間里最響亮或最重要的人在說話，而是每個人。
14:42
And you're able to elicit reactions from people who are more quiet in a meeting or people who may prefer to ideate on their own before coming out to everyone and things like that.
而且，你能夠從那些在會議中比較安靜的人那裡引起反應，或者那些可能更喜歡在向所有人和類似的事情出櫃之前自己構思的人。
14:53
And so, we started with the seed of brainstorms being this highly democratic process.
因此，我們從頭腦風暴的種子開始，就是這個高度民主的過程。
14:59
And what you see is that in most other scenarios, meetings are very one way.
你所看到的是，在大多數其他場景中，會議是非常單向的。
15:06
You have one person talking, and everyone else reacting.
你有一個人在說話，其他人都在做出反應。
15:11
This is true of a team kickoff.
團隊開球也是如此。
15:13
This is true of an all-hands.
全員出席都是如此。
15:15
This is true of basically every sort of scenario.
基本上每一種情況都是如此。
15:19
And so, what we fundamentally started marching towards was how can we create this world where the generative nature of a brainstorm is basically the norm in other kinds of meetings.
因此，我們從根本上開始朝著這個方向前進，我們如何才能創造這樣一個世界，在這個世界里，頭腦風暴的生成性質基本上是其他類型會議的常態。
15:32
Where a team kickoff is not just a PM and a designer handing mocks to an engineer, but it's everyone leaving stickies and everyone commenting at the same time, or everyone leaving...
團隊啟動不僅僅是一個專案經理和設計師將類比交給工程師，而是每個人都留下貼紙，每個人都同時發表評論，或者每個人都離開......
15:44
We have this ritual called Kudos Boards inside of FigJam, where everyone will shower each other with love and just kind call out their teammates for what they've done over the last week or so.
我們在 FigJam 內部有一個叫做 Kudos Boards 的儀式，每個人都會互相傾注愛意，並親切地稱呼他們的隊友在過去一周左右的時間里所做的一切。
15:54
And so how can we ensure that those kind of rituals are in our templates and that we're teaching people how to take any meeting and make it more democratic?
那麼，我們如何才能確保這些儀式出現在我們的範本中，並且我們正在教人們如何參加任何會議並使其更加民主？
16:02
And then, you anchor on this vision around, okay, what does a more democratic workplace look like and how can we get people to anchor around that and how can we get people to get into the flow?
然後，你錨定這個願景，好吧，一個更民主的工作場所是什麼樣子的，我們如何讓人們錨定它，我們如何讓人們進入流程？
16:13
So, then we started launching features like music, like voting, that really help you get into flow when you're in that pile together.
所以，然後我們開始推出音樂等功能，比如投票，當你在一起時，這些功能真的可以説明你進入心流狀態。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
16:22
That is such a cool example.
這是一個很酷的例子。
16:23
I'm trying to be this archeologist studying what you're describing and breaking it apart.
我試圖成為這個考古學家，研究你所描述的東西，並把它分解開來。
16:28
So, what I'm hearing essentially is there's this insight that you find of, "Oh, here's a way we should think about the way future of work.
所以，我聽到的基本上是你發現的這種見解，“哦，這是我們應該思考未來工作方式的一種方式。
16:35
It should be more democratic," building on this idea of brainstorming, which is one of the most inspiring ways of working where it's not just someone sitting in a silo.
它應該更加民主，“建立在這種頭腦風暴的想法之上，這是最鼓舞人心的工作方式之一，而不僅僅是坐在孤島中的人。
16:43
And then, you take that and create kind of a, "Here's what the world could look like if we could make everything this feel this way, very democratic."
然後，你把它拿出來，創造一種，「如果我們能讓一切都有這種感覺，非常民主，世界會是什麼樣子。
16:52
And then there's this pitch that you eventually make of, "Here's the product."
然後你最終會提出這樣的推銷，“這是產品。
16:57
And you talked about how the way you pitch it is, "Here's a pain, here's a solution, and here's a proof point of that solution," could be a testimonial or some data, I imagine.
你談到了你推銷它的方式，“這是一個痛苦，這是一個解決方案，這是該解決方案的一個證明點”，我想這可能是一個推薦或一些數據。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
17:06
Definitely. 絕對。
17:06
I think that when you're actually presenting a vision, one of the most important things is that there is a single artifact that the team is creating together.
我認為，當你真正呈現一個願景時，最重要的事情之一就是團隊正在共同創造一個工件。
17:16
So, I think a common occurrence is to have the research readout, followed by the design crit, followed by the product review.
所以，我認為一個常見的情況是先讀出研究結果，然後是設計評論，然後是產品評論。
17:26
And that's fine, that works in a lot of instances, but then you have every team member thinking that their own deliverable is what they need to pour all their energy into.
這很好，這在很多情況下都有效，但是你讓每個團隊成員都認為他們自己的可交付成果是他們需要傾注所有精力的東西。
17:37
And what you actually want is for everyone to feel incredible ownership and incredible passion about this combined deliverable, so that it's a unified team who believes a singular set of insights.
你真正想要的是讓每個人都對這個組合的可交付成果感到難以置信的主人翁精神和難以置信的熱情，這樣它就是一個相信一組獨特見解的統一團隊。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
17:52
So, what's an example of that?
那麼，有什麼例子呢？
17:52
Is it like a deck in Figma?
它像 Figma 中的甲板嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
17:54
Yeah, exactly. 是的，沒錯。
17:55
So, we often make our decks in Figma, and I think that we lean heavily into designing and prototyping even before a project gets a green light.
因此，我們經常在 Figma 中製作我們的甲板，我認為我們甚至在專案獲得批准之前就非常依賴設計和原型製作。
18:06
So, I think that's something that's really unique about Figma is normally you will talk about the market space or the opportunity of the sizing, and then decide to invest.
所以，我認為這是 Figma 真正獨特的地方，通常你會談論市場空間或規模的機會，然後決定投資。
18:16
Versus Figma is very much a see to believe and see to feel that emotional pull towards this is something worth investing in.
Versus Figma 在很大程度上是一個值得相信和看到的，感覺到對此的情感吸引力是值得投資的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
18:25
Got it. 明白了。
18:25
So, that's what I was trying to get to is how do you actually deliver a vision?
所以，這就是我想要達到的，你如何真正實現一個願景？
18:29
So, a lot of people, " Here, I need to create a vision.
18:31
I'm going to write out a paragraph or a memo describing it."
我要寫一段話或一份備忘錄來描述它。
18:34
You can create mock-ups. 您可以建立模型。
18:36
The way you're describing it, essentially, is make it as real as possible, not just mocks, but actual prototypes potentially.
從本質上講，你描述它的方式是讓它盡可能真實，不僅僅是嘲笑，而是潛在的實際原型。
18:43
Many people don't have design skills or designers on their team or engineering skills to build a prototype.
18:48
Is there anything you can share for how to do this where you don't have those skills?
在你沒有這些技能的情況下，你有什麼可以分享的嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
18:54
Yeah.
18:55
Well, the good thing is that with AI, it's getting way easier.
好吧，好消息是，有了人工智慧，它變得越來越容易。
18:57
So-
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
18:59
True. 真。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
19:00
A couple of weeks ago, Cognition launched, which for those who don't know, is a startup that made this AI agent called Devin, which can code anything for you, supposedly.
幾周前，Cognition 推出了，對於那些不知道的人來說，這是一家初創公司，它製造了一個名為 Devin 的 AI 代理，據說它可以為你編寫任何東西。
19:14
It definitely took Twitter by storm and got me super stoked.
這絕對在Twitter上掀起了一場風暴，讓我非常興奮。
19:17
And so, I think something that's interesting about the current AI revolution is that it's very much lowering the floor to starting out and to building something.
所以，我認為當前的人工智慧革命的有趣之處在於，它在很大程度上降低了起步和構建東西的門檻。
19:29
And so, recently, I was doing a chat with David Huang from Replit, and he's the head of marketing and design at Replit.
所以，最近，我和Replit的David Huang聊天，他是Replit的營銷和設計主管。
19:38
And he was basically talking about how if Replit does their job right, you start seeing it as your technical co-founder.
他基本上是在談論，如果 Replit 把他們的工作做好了，你就會開始把它看作是你的技術聯合創始人。
19:46
And I think, conversely at Figma we kind of think about if we're doing our job, maybe in the future people will think about Figma as their designer co-founder, where you can go in and use it to start bringing things into existence.
我認為，相反，在 Figma，我們會考慮如果我們在做我們的工作，也許將來人們會認為 Figma 是他們的設計師聯合創始人，在那裡你可以進入並使用它來開始將事物變為現實。
20:03
So, I think one is, yeah, I do think that we're just trending in a direction, and this was not true a year ago, where the floor to building something is just so much lower.
所以，我認為一個是，是的，我確實認為我們只是朝著一個方向發展，而一年前並非如此，當時建造一些東西的地板要低得多。
20:12
So, that's one piece. 所以，這是一件。
20:14
I think the second piece is just go around and ask people.
我認為第二部分是四處走走，問問人們。
20:22
And so, for example, for the project that I'm currently working on, I used a hackathon to pitch it.
因此，例如，對於我目前正在從事的專案，我使用了駭客馬拉松來推銷它。
20:30
And basically, I built conviction in the idea many months before the hackathon, and I was verbally pitching it.
基本上，在駭客馬拉松開始前幾個月，我就對這個想法有了信心，並且我口頭上提出了這個想法。
20:37
And it was kind of like, "Oh yeah, maybe at some point in the future we would make an investment like this."
這有點像，“哦，是的，也許在未來的某個時候，我們會進行這樣的投資。
20:43
But what actually ended up happening was we have this concept called Maker Week, which is our internal hackathon, where the entire company goes on pause for a week.
但實際結果是，我們有一個叫做「創客周」的概念，這是我們內部的駭客馬拉松，整個公司都會暫停一周。
20:51
And I think that most people think that, "Oh, hackathons are only a time for engineers to build."
我認為大多數人都認為，“哦，駭客馬拉松只是工程師構建的時機。
20:57
And I think that that's one of the biggest mistakes ever.
我認為這是有史以來最大的錯誤之一。
20:59
I think that anyone can have an idea and can... Literally, what I did was walk around the New York office asking every single person, "Will you work on this thing with me?"
我認為任何人都可以有一個想法，並且可以......從字面上看，我所做的就是在紐約辦公室里走來走去，問每個人，“你願意和我一起做這件事嗎？
21:10
And eventually, someone says yes, and then you can use that to build momentum, grow the team, and build something great.
最終，有人說是的，然後你可以利用它來建立動力，發展團隊，並建立一些偉大的東西。
21:16
But I think that never letting your own skills stop you from going out there making a pitch and then turning that into reality is really important.
但我認為，永遠不要讓自己的技能阻止你去那裡進行推銷，然後將其變成現實，這真的很重要。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
21:27
I love both of these points and pieces of advice.
我喜歡這兩點和建議。
21:29
I feel like I always say that if a PM has a designer partner that can just help them with a deck or help them with ideas, that you're such a superpower, everything just looks so much more interesting when you have a designer helping you craft your idea.
我覺得我總是說，如果一個項目經理有一個設計師合作夥伴，可以幫助他們製作一個套牌或幫助他們提出想法，那麼你就是一個超級大國，當你有一個設計師説明你製作你的想法時，一切看起來都會變得更加有趣。
21:41
And the way you describe it is pretty simple.
你描述它的方式很簡單。
21:43
Just go ask people for help because you're probably going to find someone that's going to help you out.
去向別人尋求幫助，因為你可能會找到一個可以説明你的人。
21:48
You mentioned conviction, so that's a great segue to else where I wanted to go next.
你提到了信念，所以這是一個很好的引子，我接下來想去的地方。
21:52
So, I asked Yuhki, chief product officer at Figma, about your strengths.
因此，我向 Figma 的首席產品官 Yuhki 詢問了您的優勢。
21:57
And he told me that you get extremely strong conviction extremely quickly.
他告訴我，你很快就會得到非常強烈的信念。
22:04
He said that this strong conviction allows you to navigate the messy journey from zero to one and rally your team in a really powerful way.
他說，這種堅定的信念使你能夠駕馭從零到一的混亂旅程，並以一種非常強大的方式團結你的團隊。
22:11
He actually wanted me to ask you this very question, how do you get to this strong conviction?
他實際上想讓我問你這個問題，你是如何獲得這種堅定的信念的？
22:17
And how much of it is to true deep conviction, versus there's an inkling of instinct that this is going to work and then you profit on the sense of conviction to get people rallying behind you and to kind of take this leap of faith?
有多少是真正深刻的信念，而不是有一種本能的跡象，即這會起作用，然後你利用信念感讓人們團結在你身後，並採取這種信仰的飛躍？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
22:31
I think that one of the most important things for a PM to create for their team is momentum.
我認為 PM 為他們的團隊創造的最重要的事情之一就是動力。
22:39
You have to constantly be creating forward progress, probably towards that vision that we were just talking about.
你必須不斷創造前進的進步，可能朝著我們剛才談論的願景邁進。
22:45
But I'm a huge proponent of Jeff Bezos's one-way doors, two-way doors framework.
22:51
And I think that especially in a software company, most things are two-way doors.
我認為，尤其是在軟體公司中，大多數事情都是雙向的。
22:57
You can come back. 你可以回來。
22:59
And so, it's so important to have an opinion and use that opinion to anchor people around and have people react to.
因此，有一個意見並利用這個意見來錨定人們並讓人們做出反應是非常重要的。
23:11
So, I used to work at Meta before I worked at Figma, and Meta basically distilled the product role into two core capabilities.
所以，在Figma工作之前，我曾經在Meta工作過，Meta基本上將產品角色提煉成兩個核心能力。
23:20
One was product sense and one was execution.
一個是產品意識，一個是執行力。
23:23
And when you think about product sense, it's like, okay, what is product sense?
當你想到產品感時，你會想，好吧，什麼是產品感？
23:27
It's like a really abstract term.
這就像一個非常抽象的術語。
23:29
And at the end of the day, I think product sense is just having good intuition.
23:34
And so, there's this question about, okay, how do you build up intuition?
所以，有一個問題，好吧，你如何建立直覺？
23:38
And I think that it's just by having this insatiable curiosity and talking to users at every chance you get.
我認為，只有通過這種永不滿足的好奇心，並抓住每一個機會與使用者交談。
23:45
So, I would go to dinners and grill the people around me on how they use Figma and how they use FigJam.
所以，我會去吃飯，和我周圍的人討論他們如何使用 Figma 以及他們如何使用 FigJam。
23:52
And I think when you have a conversation with someone, it's so much more powerful in terms of getting those anecdotes to stick in your head.
我認為當你與某人交談時，讓這些軼事留在你的腦海中會更強大。
23:59
And what actually happens is once you start having enough conversations, let's say you start with conversations ABC, then you progress to conversations DEF, over time you build this almost repository or library of conversations that you can draw from as you're making product decisions.
實際發生的事情是，一旦你開始進行足夠的對話，假設你從對話 ABC 開始，然後你進展到對話 DEF，隨著時間的推移，你建立了這個幾乎是對話的存儲庫或庫，你可以在做出產品決策時從中汲取靈感。
24:15
And so, I think that that's a really powerful thing to lean into as you're thinking about, "Okay, which path do we go down?"
所以，我認為這是一件非常強大的事情，當你在思考時，「好吧，我們走哪條路？
24:23
Now, there's the question of in the absence of any external signal, what can you do?
現在的問題是，在沒有任何外部信號的情況下，你能做什麼？
24:31
And I think that a very common thing, especially for PMs who are younger in their career, is to think that your opinion isn't right or might not be reflective of what the user thinks.
而且我認為，對於職業生涯中較年輕的專案經理來說，一件非常普遍的事情是認為您的意見不正確，或者可能無法反映使用者的想法。
24:42
So, you think, "Okay, I believe this," and at the end of the day, everyone has an opinion, right?
所以，你會想，「好吧，我相信這一點」，到頭來，每個人都有意見，對吧？
24:47
So, "I think this, but what do I know compared to these people who've been in my company for 10 years?"
所以，「我是這麼認為的，但與這些在我公司工作了10年的人相比，我知道什麼？
24:54
Or, "What do I know compared to my users who are using the product?"
“或者，”與使用該產品的使用者相比，我知道什麼？
24:58
And so, then I think what might happen in those instances is you kind of start from nothing, you start from zero and you're like, "Okay, I'm going to build up from zero and gather all of these insights to get to a good place."
所以，我認為在這些情況下可能發生的事情是，你從零開始，你從零開始，你會說，“好吧，我要從零開始，收集所有這些見解，以達到一個好地方。
25:11
And I think my take is that putting out an idea, even if it's totally wrong, is a much better catalyst for getting to a good solution because people are much more likely to react to an idea than to nothing.
25:28
So, if it's the right idea, then they'll be like, "Oh my God, yes, let's totally do that."
所以，如果這是正確的想法，那麼他們會說，“哦，我的上帝，是的，讓我們完全這樣做。
25:34
And if it's wrong, then it's like, okay, then they will take you in a different direction and you end up with something that's probably much more opinionated than if you hadn't put anything out there.
如果它是錯的，那麼就像，好吧，然後他們會把你帶到一個不同的方向，你最終會得到一些可能比你沒有放任何東西更固執己見的東西。
25:43
And so, it was funny, one piece of advice that I got from Yuhki when I was working on my vision sprint was like, "Okay, when you go into research, you want to go in with something that's at least an A- idea, or you think is at least an A- idea.
所以，這很有趣，當我在進行願景衝刺時，我從Yuhki那裡得到的一條建議是，“好吧，當你進入研究時，你想進入至少是一個A-想法，或者你認為至少是一個A-想法。
25:54
Because if you talk to users and you learn something about it, that's awesome.
因為如果你與使用者交談並瞭解它，那就太棒了。
25:58
Get to an A+. 獲得 A+。
26:00
If not, at least you're not at a B."
如果沒有，至少你沒有達到B。
26:01
And so, I think that having-
所以，我認為有——
26:03
If not, at least you're not at a B. And so I think that having that early conviction, being willing to communicate it, being willing to get feedback from other folks in your team, have them react to it, then get users to react to it, is so important, but then also something that's equally important when you have "high conviction", quote, unquote, is to be willing to kill your darlings if you hear something that tells you otherwise.
26:26
You need to be so sort of strong opinions weekly held.
你需要每周都持有如此強烈的意見。
26:29
And if you get external signal that's telling you something different, you should be ready to pivot and have that agility to do so.
如果你得到的外部信號告訴你一些不同的東西，你應該準備好進行調整，並有這種敏捷性來做到這一點。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
26:37
There's a lot of PMs that kind of worry about having too strong of an opinion and being like, "Here's what we're doing," because then there's this like, "Oh, okay, they just want us to do the thing they want us to do, and we don't have a voice.
有很多項目經理擔心意見太強烈，就像“這就是我們正在做的事情”，因為接下來就會有這樣的情況，“哦，好吧，他們只是想讓我們做他們想讓我們做的事情，而我們沒有發言權。
26:47
We don't have a chance to influence."
我們沒有機會施加影響。
26:50
It seems like you find a really magical balance of strong opinion of like, "Here's what we should be doing," but people still love working with you and don't feel like... I haven't heard like, "Oh, she just tells us what to bill."
似乎你找到了一個非常神奇的平衡點，比如「這是我們應該做的」，但人們仍然喜歡和你一起工作，不喜歡......我沒有聽說過，“哦，她只是告訴我們要開什麼帳單。
27:02
What advice do you have there of just finding that balance and making it clear?
對於找到平衡並明確這一點，您有什麼建議？
27:05
It's just my idea. 這隻是我的想法。
27:06
We can change it. 我們可以改變它。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
27:07
I would say that speaking about weaknesses, having such strong conviction absolutely has downsides.
我想說的是，說到弱點，擁有如此堅定的信念絕對有缺點。
27:13
In particular, it's possible that it doesn't have the desired effect.
27:17
So for example, my designer who I work with, his name is Kean, he's so talented.
舉個例子，和我一起工作的設計師，他的名字叫Kean，他很有才華。
27:25
We work like this. 我們是這樣工作的。
27:26
Literally for most of last year, we had an hour long one- on-one every single day and still that wasn't enough-
從字面上看，在去年的大部分時間里，我們每天都有一個小時的一對一時間，但這還不夠——
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
27:32
Everyday? 每天？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
27:32
... meeting time. ...會議時間。
27:32
Yes. 是的。
27:33
We basically work together like this, but he also told me that when I joined the company, he was like, "Who is this girl and why does she have so many opinions?"
我們基本上都是這樣一起工作的，但他也告訴我，當我加入公司時，他會說，「這個女孩是誰，為什麼她有這麼多意見？
27:43
And so I think that something that I have learned to do over time, and I think that's something that's a good sort of thing to lean into if you are a PM who has strong opinions, is to be very direct about how much you care about your opinions.
所以我認為，隨著時間的推移，我學會了做一些事情，我認為如果你是一個有強烈意見的總理，我認為這是一件值得學習的好事，那就是非常直接地表明你有多在乎你的意見。
27:58
So now, I'll do this thing where I'll be like, "Oh, I think we should do this, but I feel like medium confidence on it."
所以現在，我會做這件事，我會說，“哦，我認為我們應該這樣做，但我覺得對它有中等的信心。
28:05
So if you feel stronger like, "I defer to you," and always being very, very, very explicit about like, "I feel really strongly about this," or, "This is my hypothesis," or, "I do not have an opinion here.
因此，如果你覺得自己更強烈，比如“我服從你”，並且總是非常、非常、非常明確地表達“我對此感到非常強烈”，或者，“這是我的假設”，或者，“我在這裡沒有意見。
28:19
I defer to you." 我聽從你。
28:21
I think the second thing that I would mention that is really important in order to do this correctly is... So I have a very direct communication style.
我認為我要提到的第二件事對於正確地做到這一點非常重要的是......所以我有一種非常直接的溝通方式。
28:29
I will never sugarcoat anything.
我永遠不會粉飾任何東西。
28:31
I'll never say I like something if I don't like something.
如果我不喜歡某樣東西，我永遠不會說我喜歡某樣東西。
28:33
If I'm in a meeting and someone tells me they don't agree with me, I will tell them I don't agree with them back.
如果我在開會時，有人告訴我他們不同意我的觀點，我會告訴他們我不同意他們的觀點。
28:38
In return, I really like it when people are very direct with me.
作為回報，我真的很喜歡人們對我非常直接的態度。
28:43
And so I think that whenever I join a team or whenever I start working with a new person, I always let them know.
所以我認為，每當我加入一個團隊或開始與一個新人一起工作時，我總是讓他們知道。
28:49
I'm always like, :I am very direct and if you disagree with me, I want to know that."
我總是這樣說：我非常直接，如果你不同意我的觀點，我想知道。
28:55
Because I think sometimes what can happen is really strongly minded PMs can go into a conversation and can be like, "Oh, I think we should do X," even though they actually feel medium confidence about X. And then the rest of the room is like, "Oh, my God.
因為我認為有時可能發生的事情是，真正有強烈思想的PM可以進入對話，並可能說，“哦，我認為我們應該做X”，即使他們實際上對X有中等的信心。然後房間裡的其他人就像，“哦，我的上帝。
29:10
That PM feels so strongly about doing X that I'm not going to say anything because they clearly have so much conviction in X."
那位總理對做X的感覺如此強烈，以至於我不會說什麼，因為他們顯然對X有如此深厚的信念。
29:17
And what you actually want is for everyone to feel comfortable speaking up.
你真正想要的是讓每個人都能自在地暢所欲言。
29:19
And so creating that culture where everyone feels comfortable giving their opinion and communicating their level of confidence is really important.
因此，創造一種文化，讓每個人都能自在地發表意見並傳達他們的信心水準，這一點非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
29:27
So this direct communication point you made, somebody shared this quote, Alice Ching, who I think your EM said this about you that she's in awe of how direct you are, especially how you can make it not personal and help people focus on the matter at hand.
所以你提出的這個直接溝通點，有人分享了這句話，Alice Ching，我認為你的 EM 對你說了這句話，她對你的直接程度感到敬畏，尤其是你如何讓它變得不個人化並幫助人們專注於手頭的事情。
29:43
Any other advice you have there for people to, one, either be more direct and successful in that being directness?
你還有什麼建議可以讓人們，第一，要麼更直接，要麼更成功，要麼更直接？
29:51
Or is there an example you can share where, because I think people hear this, they're like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to be direct.
或者你可以分享一個例子，因為我認為人們聽到這個，他們會說，“哦，是的，我要直截了當。
29:56
I'm going to be so direct, it's going to be great," and then it's so hard to actually do, so is there maybe an example that comes to mind of here's something you did recently of like, "Oh, wow.
我會變得如此直接，這將是偉大的，“然後實際上很難做到，所以有沒有一個例子會想到你最近做的事情，比如，”哦，哇。
30:05
Okay, I see what she's talking about"?
好吧，我明白她在說什麼了“？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
30:07
So I think that directness only works if it's two-way.
所以我認為直接性只有在雙向的情況下才有效。
30:11
If it is one person being really direct with another person and then the other person being afraid to talk, you will end up in probably a not great relationship where communication is only going one way and both people will be in their own head.
如果一個人對另一個人非常直接，然後另一個人害怕說話，那麼你最終會陷入一段不太好的關係，溝通只能單向進行，兩個人都會在自己的腦海中。
30:28
The person being direct will be like, "Why is the other person not responding to my feedback?"
直截了當的人會說，「為什麼對方不回應我的反饋？
30:33
And then the other person will be like, "Why am I the only one getting so much feedback?"
然後另一個人會說，「為什麼僅自己一個人得到這麼多反饋？
30:38
Meta, where I used to work, had this phrase, "Feedback as a gift," and I so deeply believe in this.
我曾經工作過的 Meta 有這樣一句話，「反饋是一種禮物」，我對此深信不疑。
30:44
And in order to really lean into that phrase and really embody it, I think it's really important that feedback is this constantly flowing thing, not something that happens once or twice a year when you have an official feedback cycle.
為了真正理解這句話並真正體現它，我認為反饋是不斷流動的，而不是當你有一個正式的反饋週期時，每年發生一兩次的事情，這一點非常重要。
30:57
And the way that I try and create this culture of constant direct communication, constant feedback is if you have feedback to give someone else, I think you can start by asking, "Hey, do you have feedback from me?"
我試圖創造這種持續直接溝通、持續反饋的文化的方式是，如果你有反饋要給別人，我想你可以先問：“嘿，你有我的反饋嗎？
31:12
And kind of taking the feedback first so then that person feels like, "Okay, maybe I have my way of seeing this situation.
然後先接受反饋，然後那個人會覺得，“好吧，也許我有我看待這種情況的方式。
31:20
Let me communicate that and get off my chest."
讓我傳達這一點，然後離開我的胸膛。
31:23
And then when you give your feedback, it's sort of even.
然後當你給出你的反饋時，它有點均勻。
31:26
And then feedback in my opinion is something that you should always act on.
然後，在我看來，反饋是您應該始終採取行動的事情。
31:30
So then to the extent that you can as soon as possible put that into effect and be like, "Okay, I'm hearing this.
因此，在某種程度上，您可以儘快將其付諸實施，並說，“好吧，我聽到了。
31:35
I'm going to do XYZ in order to combat that."
為了解決這個問題，我打算做XYZ。
31:39
I think then that incentivizes the other person to do the same.
我認為這會激勵其他人也這樣做。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
31:43
Okay, let me quickly summarize what we've gone through so far in our archaeological study, and then I'm going to drill into a specific trait.
好吧，讓我快速總結一下我們迄今為止在考古研究中所經歷的事情，然後我將深入研究一個特定的特徵。
31:49
So one is just having a really powerful vision that people get really excited about.
因此，人們只是擁有一個非常強大的願景，人們對此感到非常興奮。
31:54
And the way you described it is kind of find an insight about how you think people could be, in this example, how people could be working maybe through this brainstorm approach and then kind of expanding that into something where this is what would happen if we achieve this in the future, and this is what the world could look like, and that's something people get really excited about.
你描述它的方式是找到一種關於你認為人們如何的洞察力，在這個例子中，人們如何通過這種頭腦風暴方法工作，然後將其擴展到如果我們在未來實現這一目標會發生什麼，這就是世界可能的樣子， 這是人們真正興奮的事情。
32:11
So kind of creating compelling vision, being able to communicate it with, and in your experience, communicating with prototypes and mocks is the way that you find it to be most effective.
因此，創造令人信服的願景，能夠與之溝通，根據你的經驗，與原型和模擬進行溝通是你發現它最有效的方式。
32:20
Also, just getting to strong conviction, whether it's real or not, but it sounds like it's actually very genuine about an idea and making it clear.
此外，只是要有強烈的信念，無論它是真的還是假的，但聽起來它實際上對一個想法非常真誠，並把它說得很清楚。
32:27
You're very excited about this and here's how it's going to be amazing for the business and the company, and here's why you should be excited about it.
你對此感到非常興奮，這就是它對企業和公司來說將如何令人驚歎，這就是為什麼你應該對此感到興奮。
32:35
Also, you talked about being very direct and being very honest and basically radical candor as some people describe it.
另外，你談到了非常直接，非常誠實，基本上是一些人所描述的激進坦率。
32:42
First of all, is there anything else I missed specifically before I drill into one of these?
首先，在我深入研究其中之一之前，我還有什麼特別錯過的嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
32:47
That sounds right. 這聽起來沒錯。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
32:48
Okay, cool. 好吧，很酷。
32:49
So kind of along these lines, something else that came up a bunch of in my emails with folks that you work with is how you build hype really effectively, and you talked about this a bit of just creating momentum about an idea.
因此，沿著這些思路，在我與你一起工作的人的電子郵件中，你還提到了你如何真正有效地進行炒作，你談到了這一點，只是為了創造一個想法的動力。
33:00
So you got this idea, get everyone pitch it, get everyone excited, and then it just continues to build hype and momentum.
33:07
So a quote from Karl Jiang, who is on your team maybe, he said, "I feel no PM has ever got me so hyped about a feature."
33:17
And Yuhki said that you overcome people's doubts by building hype and hacking hype is the way described it.
Yuhki說，你通過建立炒作來克服人們的疑慮，駭客炒作就是這樣描述的。
33:26
Talk about this and why do you think it's important and how you actually go about doing this.
談談這個，為什麼你認為它很重要，以及你實際上是如何去做這件事的。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
33:31
When you are spearheading an idea or a product, it's really on you to have a pulse on how everyone else is feeling about that product.
當你帶頭提出一個想法或一個產品時，你真的需要瞭解其他人對該產品的感受。
33:47
And different products need different levels of excitement to make it out the door.
不同的產品需要不同程度的興奮才能推出。
33:54
If there is something that leadership has really strong conviction in, it's important for leadership to amp the whole company up behind that vision.
如果領導層對某件事有非常堅定的信念，那麼領導層就必須讓整個公司都支援這一願景。
34:05
On the flip side, if you yourself are pushing a zero to one idea from the bottoms up, the onus is even more on you to make sure that that project and that product is constantly propped up and that people are excited about it to make it out the door.
另一方面，如果你自己自下而上地推動一個從零到一的想法，那麼你的責任就更大了，要確保這個專案和那個產品不斷得到支持，並且人們對此感到興奮。
34:21
And so one example is we've been talking about this product that I'm working on.
舉個例子，我們一直在談論我正在開發的這個產品。
34:26
And coming out of winter break this year, there's this sense, or at least I always suspect, that there's this sense of over winter break, everyone forgets what happened last year.
今年寒假過後，有一種感覺，或者至少我一直懷疑，有一種寒假過後的感覺，每個人都忘記了去年發生的事情。
34:37
It goes at the door because you were hopefully doing something that took your mind off work.
它之所以出現在門口，是因為你希望做一些讓你的注意力從工作上移開的事情。
34:43
And so at the same time, there's this sense of how do you create forward momentum inside of a company in January when people are slowly coming back into office, everyone's trickling back in at different dates because everyone to click slightly different PTO, how do you rally people in a certain direction?
因此，與此同時，當人們慢慢回到辦公室時，你如何在公司內部創造前進的動力，每個人都在不同的日期涓涓細流，因為每個人點擊的 PTO 略有不同，你如何將人們團結在某個方向上？
35:01
And so we have this thing at Figma called SKO or Sales Kickoff, which is every year the sales team comes together, and we have a keynote and a set of fireside chats and stuff like that, and we talk about what's coming for the year.
因此，我們在 Figma 有一個叫做 SKO 或銷售啟動會的東西，每年銷售團隊都會聚在一起，我們有一個主題演講和一系列爐邊談話之類的東西，我們談論今年即將發生的事情。
35:18
And at this point, our product, it existed, but it was absolutely barely built.
在這一點上，我們的產品，它存在，但它絕對沒有建成。
35:25
It was rough around the edges.
它的邊緣很粗糙。
35:27
It had bugs every day.
它每天都有蟲子。
35:29
Maybe 10 people in the company were using it and something like that outside of the team.
35:37
Yeah, it was so important to me that this product got visibility in this forum because this was the first company-wide forum of the year where we were declaring priorities for the year.
是的，對我來說，這個產品在這個論壇上獲得知名度非常重要，因為這是我們今年第一次在全公司範圍內宣佈今年的優先事項的論壇。
35:50
And so it was so important to me that this product had some sort of a moment, or speaking of show, don't tell, a demo in the context of this keynote.
所以對我來說，這個產品有某種時刻，或者說到展示，不要說，在這個主題演講的背景下有一個演示，這對我來說非常重要。
36:01
And so Kris, our CTO and Yuhki, our CPO, were giving this keynote on what does our year look like?
因此，我們的首席技術官 Kris 和我們的 CPO Yuhki 就我們的這一年是什麼樣子發表了主題演講？
36:08
And I really, really deeply insisted that we should include a demo.
我真的非常非常堅定地認為我們應該包括一個演示。
36:14
And I think what ended up happening is something like that, a demo that wasn't meant to be a demo or that people weren't expecting does so much in terms of driving that sense of hype and helping people see what you yourself see in the future.
我認為最終發生的事情是這樣的，一個本來不打算成為演示或人們沒有預料到的演示在推動這種炒作感和幫助人們看到你自己在未來看到的東西方面做了很多事情。
36:32
And what's really interesting is I think that hype is something that... You can't really create hype for something you don't believe in my opinion.
真正有趣的是，我認為炒作是......在我看來，你真的不能為你不相信的東西大肆宣傳。
36:44
The only way to create hype is to get people to see what you see.
炒作的唯一方法是讓人們看到你所看到的。
36:50
And so I think that it's incredibly important to leverage very large forums like that Maker Week, like Sales Kickoff.
因此，我認為利用像Maker Week這樣的大型論壇非常重要，比如Sales Kickoff。
37:02
We have CONFIG, which is our annual showcase to the world of what we're working on in order to get everyone to see what you're seeing and to be really scrappy about it and to really be the person who's pushing your product to its limits in the right moments.
我們有 CONFIG，這是我們每年向世界展示我們正在做的事情，以便讓每個人都看到你所看到的，並真正對它充滿鬥志，並真正成為在適當的時候將你的產品推向極限的人。
37:17
And I think what you find is that if you push your product to get visibility, maybe even beyond what the current stage of product development merits is that you have really incredible learnings because the more that you can put your product in front of people and get them to use it, the more signal you get on how it's trending.
我認為你會發現，如果你推動你的產品獲得知名度，甚至可能超越當前產品開發階段的價值，你有真正令人難以置信的學習，因為你越能把你的產品展示在人們面前並讓他們使用它，你得到的關於它如何趨勢的信號就越多。
37:35
And so what ended up happening was something that could have originally been perceived as a distraction to the team actually ended up being something that added so much fuel to the fire in terms of, one, giving us product insights to inform our next steps.
因此，最終發生的事情是，最初可能被視為分散團隊注意力的事情，實際上最終成為火上澆油的事情，第一，為我們提供了產品見解，為我們的下一步提供了資訊。
37:50
And two, getting the entire company to feel truly, deeply feel excited about getting this thing out the door.
第二，讓整個公司都對推出這個東西感到真正、深深的興奮。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
37:58
And this pitch and product you're describing is the one that's going to be launching this mysterious new product, right?
你所描述的這個推銷和產品就是將要推出這個神秘的新產品，對吧？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
38:03
Yes. 是的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
38:05
I feel like we're going to build so much hype for this thing when it ever comes out.
我覺得當它出來時，我們會為這個東西做很多炒作。
38:07
I'm so excited to learn what it is.
我很高興知道它是什麼。
38:09
Coming back to the point, so what I'm hearing essentially is you find it's important to take responsibility for this thing to become a thing at a company.
38:18
A lot of people have an idea, they build a prototype, they build a hackathon project, and then they're like, "God, no one's ever doing anything with it.
很多人有一個想法，他們建立了一個原型，他們建立了一個駭客馬拉松專案，然後他們說，“上帝，沒有人用它做任何事情。
38:24
It's not going anywhere. 它哪兒也去不了。
38:25
Nothing ever happens." 什麼都沒發生過。
38:26
What I'm hearing is it's on you to get people excited about it and find these opportunities to get people excited about it.
我聽到的是，你要讓人們對它感到興奮，並找到這些機會讓人們對它感到興奮。
38:33
And there's also this, what I'm feeling is the feels is really important.
還有這個，我感覺到感覺真的很重要。
38:37
It's like you have all the data probably.
這就像您可能擁有所有數據一樣。
38:39
There's probably a logical case for this that you've made across the company, but what you're describing here is you need to get people hyped about it in a emotional, visceral way and basically find opportunities to do that is kind of a lesson here.
你在整個公司裡可能有一個合乎邏輯的案例，但你在這裡描述的是，你需要讓人們以一種情緒化的、發自內心的方式大肆宣傳它，並且基本上找到機會這樣做，這是一個教訓。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
38:52
In my mind, there is internal hype, which is how do you get buy-in and everyone inside of the company to be fanging their fist on the table for a product to get built, but there's also external hype, which is like how do you get your users hyped about your product?
在我看來，有內部炒作，即你如何獲得支援，公司內部的每個人都在桌子上揮舞拳頭，讓產品得到構建，但也有外部炒作，比如你如何讓你的使用者對你的產品大肆宣傳？
39:10
How do you get them to really be so stoked when there are milestone occasions for your product or milestone launches and for them to be celebrating with you?
當你的產品或里程碑式的發佈有里程碑式的場合，並讓他們和你一起慶祝時，你如何讓他們真正如此興奮？
39:19
And one of the things that I loved the most when I joined the company was Figma and design Twitter have had this very symbiotic relationship where each has grown with the other over time.
當我加入公司時，我最喜歡的一件事是 Figma 和設計 Twitter 有著非常共生的關係，隨著時間的推移，彼此都與對方一起成長。
39:31
And what really happens is anytime we launch something, you have all of design Twitter celebrating with us.
真正發生的事情是，每當我們發佈一些東西時，你都會讓所有的設計 Twitter 與我們一起慶祝。
39:38
And one other moment when I thought it was very fun to drive hype was when I worked on FigJam in 2022.
另一個我認為推動炒作非常有趣的時刻是我在 2022 年為 FigJam 工作時。
39:48
It was the one year FigJam anniversary in April, and project anniversaries or product anniversaries are quite an exciting milestone within the company.
4 月是 FigJam 成立一周年，專案周年紀念日或產品周年紀念日是公司內部一個非常激動人心的里程碑。
39:59
You bring everyone together, maybe you pop a bottle of champagne, you kind of celebrate how far you've come and what all you've learned since the launch.
你把所有人聚集在一起，也許你開了一瓶香檳，你慶祝你已經走了多遠，以及你自發佈以來學到了什麼。
40:07
But we were really thinking like, "Okay, FigJam is awesome, but FigJam isn't just any product.
但我們真的在想，「好吧，FigJam 很棒，但 FigJam 不僅僅是任何產品。
40:15
Figjam has a personality.
Figjam 有個性。
40:17
FigJam is cheeky. FigJam 很厚臉皮。
40:18
FigJam is fun. FigJam 很有趣。
40:19
FigJam has this cute skeuomorphism going on where you feel like it's your friend.
FigJam 有這種可愛的擬物化，你會覺得它是你的朋友。
40:25
And so okay, how would you celebrate that moment for a friend?"
好吧，你會如何為朋友慶祝那一刻？
40:29
You wouldn't really have an anniversary party.
你不會真的有一個周年紀念派對。
40:31
You would throw it a full on birthday party.
你會把它扔給一個完整的生日派對。
40:34
And so what we basically did was at the one year anniversary of FigJam, I worked with the marketing team and our engineering team in order to basically kick off a mini launch inside of the product of a bunch of new features.
因此，我們基本上所做的是在 FigJam 成立一周年之際，我與行銷團隊和我們的工程團隊合作，基本上在一系列新功能的產品中啟動了一個小型發佈會。
40:49
And what we did was we Easter egged them through the product and each sort of product that we were releasing inside of FigJam was hidden under this little birthday present.
我們所做的就是通過產品來鼓勵他們復活節，我們在 FigJam 中發佈的每一種產品都隱藏在這個小小的生日禮物下面。
41:03
And throughout the day, we sent all of our users on an Easter egg hunt of presents inside of FigJam.
一整天，我們讓所有使用者在 FigJam 內尋找禮物的復活節彩蛋。
41:09
And so not only was a FigJam getting the presents, but it was our users getting the presents.
因此，不僅 FigJam 獲得了禮物，而且我們的使用者也獲得了禮物。
41:14
I think that hype as well is really tied to emotion.
我認為炒作也確實與情感有關。
41:18
So to the extent that a person using a product can feel like, "Oh, this thing that is built in the product was built for me not to advance the company's goals or anything like that, but to make me feel special, to make me feel happy."
因此，在某種程度上，使用產品的人會覺得，“哦，產品中內置的這個東西是為我構建的，不是為了推進公司的目標或類似的東西，而是為了讓我感到特別，讓我感到快樂。
41:34
I think that's a really key instrument in driving hype as well.
41:36
And I think that something that's quite interesting about hype and getting your users to feel strongly about your product is that every product has their own brand of delight or excitement or energy.
我認為，關於炒作和讓你的使用者對你的產品有強烈的感覺，非常有趣的一點是，每個產品都有自己的喜悅、興奮或能量品牌。
41:48
So hype for FigJam is incredibly different than hype from Figma, where hype for Figma might be this really, really niche design capability that unlocks this pain point that designers have been having for years and years.
因此，對 FigJam 的炒作與對 Figma 的炒作截然不同，對 Figma 的炒作可能是這種非常非常小眾的設計能力，它解鎖了設計師多年來一直存在的痛點。
42:02
And then hype for Apple might be like the world's best unboxing experience or something like that.
然後對蘋果的炒作可能就像世界上最好的開箱體驗或類似的東西。
42:08
And so leaning into a product's brand in order to figure out what is the optimal way to generate hype with your audience and form that connection is something that's really important.
因此，為了弄清楚與受眾進行炒作並形成這種聯繫的最佳方式，向產品品牌傾斜是非常重要的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
42:19
I love that example. 我喜歡這個例子。
42:20
Something else I'm finding as a thread throughout all of the lessons and stories he shares is just an immersion in your user base and truly knowing what they're excited about, what problems they have, and you talk about having strong conviction and painting a grand vision.
在他分享的所有課程和故事中，我發現的另一條線索是沉浸在你的使用者群中，真正知道他們對什麼感到興奮，他們有什麼問題，你談論有堅定的信念和描繪一個宏偉的願景。
42:37
It's one thing if someone that doesn't do that does that, it's just like, why would I believe them?
如果有人不這樣做，這是一回事，就像，我為什麼要相信他們？
42:43
Versus someone that like you, where you're just constantly talking to users and actually understand what they need.
與像你這樣的人相比，你只是不斷地與使用者交談，真正了解他們的需求。
42:50
So I guess the question here is just what advice would you share with folks to build that, to be immersed with users?
所以我想這裡的問題是，你會與人們分享什麼建議來構建它，讓使用者沉浸其中？
42:57
What do you actually do?
你到底是做什麼的？
42:57
How do you actually do that?
你是怎麼做到的？
42:58
Are you just organizing meetings, events?
您只是在組織會議、活動嗎？
43:00
Are you scheduling chats?
您是否正在安排聊天？
43:02
How do you do this?
你是怎麼做到的？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
43:03
Yeah, so I think it honestly depends on the product.
是的，所以我認為老實說這取決於產品。
43:07
So when I worked at Meta, it was so easy.
因此，當我在 Meta 工作時，這很容易。
43:09
Everyone and their mom had opinion about the product, which was really great because it meant that anyone you met, you could kind of ask them what they liked, what they didn't like.
每個人和他們的媽媽都對這個產品有意見，這真的很棒，因為這意味著你遇到的任何人，你都可以問他們喜歡什麼，不喜歡什麼。
43:18
You can relay that through the company, et cetera.
43:22
Now at Figma, we have a slightly more niche audience.
現在在 Figma，我們的受眾稍微小眾一些。
43:28
I think that hopefully, ultimately we get to everyone.
我想，希望最終我們能接觸到每個人。
43:31
We started with design teams, now we're thinking about the entire product development cycle and how we can build for that, and then who knows, beyond that could be anything.
我們從設計團隊開始，現在我們正在考慮整個產品開發週期，以及我們如何為此進行構建，然後誰知道呢，除此之外可能還有任何東西。
43:42
But I think that constantly immersing yourself in those circles where your users are is really important.
但我認為，不斷讓自己沉浸在使用者所在的圈子中非常重要。
43:48
So for me, it's like anytime that I'm catching up with a friend, who mildly works in tech or a tech adjacent field, I will generally be asking them about Figma.
所以對我來說，這就像每當我遇到一個在技術或技術相關領域工作的朋友時，我通常會問他們關於 Figma 的事情。
44:00
And I think what's really great is that as a company scales over time, their user base gets broader and broader.
我認為真正偉大的是，隨著公司隨著時間的推移而擴大，他們的使用者群變得越來越廣泛。
44:10
And so when we grew from a single product company with Figma into now a multi product company with FigJam, dev mode, etc, our audience exploded.
因此，當我們從一家擁有 Figma 的單一產品公司發展成為現在一家擁有 FigJam、開發模式等的多產品公司時，我們的受眾激增。
44:21
And we already saw latent behavior inside of Figma, but now it's even more clear how wide reaching the product is.
我們已經看到了 Figma 內部的潛在行為，但現在更清楚該產品的覆蓋範圍有多廣。
44:29
And so something that I find incredibly useful is to not just ask users of your product what they think about your product, but to ask non-users about your product, why they're not using your product.
因此，我發現非常有用的一點是，不僅要詢問產品的使用者對您的產品的看法，還要向非使用者詢問您的產品，以及他們為什麼不使用您的產品。
44:43
And actually I think that those are the most insightful conversations because I think that having a product shine and having a product do well and have great adoption isn't just about the product being great.
實際上，我認為這些是最有見地的對話，因為我認為讓產品大放異彩，讓產品表現良好並得到廣泛採用，不僅僅是產品很棒。
44:54
It's also about the marketing and the perceptions that surround the product and potentially the hype that surrounds that, right?
這也與圍繞產品的行銷和看法以及圍繞產品的潛在炒作有關，對吧？
45:01
And so having those conversations about... I remember having an early conversation with folks from my previous team about, "Hey, are you guys using FigJam?"
因此，進行這些對話......我記得我和我以前團隊的人有過一次對話，「嘿，你們在用 FigJam 嗎？
45:10
And they would be like, "Maybe sometimes."
他們會說，「也許有時。
45:13
And I'd be like, "Well, why aren't you using FigJam?
我會說，「好吧，你為什麼不使用 FigJam？
45:15
It's literally built for you."
45:17
And then that led to a series of product insights that led us to invest in a set of features that would make it much easier for a non-designer to get started out on the canvas.
然後，這導致了一系列產品見解，促使我們投資於一組功能，這些功能將使非設計師更容易在畫布上開始。
45:27
So we launched this kind of placeholder experience that rather than traditional templates, really let people see the various use cases and preview the various use cases on the canvas.
因此，我們推出了這種佔位元體驗，而不是傳統的範本，真正讓人們看到各種用例並在畫布上預覽各種用例。
45:37
And so that was incredibly important.
所以這非常重要。
45:39
And then Figma, of course, is kind of like it's in this pro-sumer space where it's like you talk to anyone in tech and maybe they're your top total addressable market.
當然，Figma有點像在這個專業消費者的領域，就像你和科技界的任何人交談一樣，也許他們是你最大的潛在市場。
45:48
But then there are some products I know that people work on which are very removed from the average person, you have infra products, security products and things like that, where you can't just walk up to someone and have a conversation with them about why aren't they using your product because that conversation might not make any sense.
但是，我知道人們從事的一些產品與普通人非常不同，你有基礎設施產品、安全產品和類似的東西，你不能只是走到某人面前，與他們交談，瞭解他們為什麼不使用你的產品，因為這種對話可能沒有任何意義。
46:08
And so in those instances, I think that what's really important is it depends on the stage of company that you're at.
因此，在這些情況下，我認為真正重要的是這取決於你所處的公司階段。
46:14
If you're at an early stage company, you need to be the one going out there and having conversations with your users and just literally looking up your users through whatever channels necessary and figuring out how you can connect with them.
如果你在一家處於早期階段的公司，你需要走出去，與你的用戶進行對話，通過任何必要的渠道尋找你的使用者，並弄清楚如何與他們建立聯繫。
46:28
I think this is also why founder market fit at startups is so important is because to the extent that you can use yourself as a limits test for what user needs there are, that helps you move really fast in the product development cycle.
我認為這也是為什麼創業公司的創始人市場契合度如此重要的原因，因為在某種程度上，你可以將自己作為使用者需求的極限測試，這有助於你在產品開發週期中快速移動。
46:40
And then if you're on the larger side, I think that having a really tight relationship with your sales team is really important.
然後，如果你站在更大的一邊，我認為與你的銷售團隊建立非常緊密的關係非常重要。
46:46
And basically, just being on sales calls because you want to be in a situation where the customer pain points on sales calls are cross pollinating into the product roadmap, and you also want to ensure that your sales team has visibility into what might be coming and are constantly informing that.
基本上，只是接聽銷售電話，因為您希望客戶在銷售電話中的痛點交叉傳播到產品路線圖中，並且您還希望確保您的銷售團隊瞭解可能發生的事情並不斷通知。
47:07
And so I think really leaning into that, building that relationship between these traditionally more siloed orgs and hopping on those calls is something that I'd really recommend.
因此，我認為真正傾向於這一點，在這些傳統上更加孤立的組織之間建立這種關係並接聽這些電話是我真正推薦的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
47:16
Awesome. 棒。
47:16
Let's go actually one layer deeper here.
讓我們在這裡更深入一層。
47:18
So you're talking to people all the time about FigJam, "Aren't you using FigJam?
所以你一直在和人們談論 FigJam，“你不是在用 FigJam 嗎？
47:22
What do you think of Figma?
您如何看待 Figma？
47:23
What do think of this?"
對此你怎麼看？
47:24
You're hopping on sales calls.
您正在接聽銷售電話。
47:27
What do you do with what you hear?
你用你聽到的東西做什麼？
47:29
Is there kind of an operational approach where you... Do you just put in your head and sticks in your head and rolls around and comes up, things emerge?
有沒有一種操作方法，你...你只是把你的頭伸進去，插在你的腦袋裡，滾來滾去，事情就出現了嗎？
47:35
Do you have a place you put these insights, you're learning?
你有沒有把這些見解放在一個地方，你正在學習？
47:38
Are you putting post-its in FigJam, for example.
例如，您是否在 FigJam 中放置便利貼。
47:41
And then on the sales side, do you have a cadence where I'm going to join a sales call once a week, here's a person I love in sales, I'm going to try to join all the calls.
然後在銷售方面，你有沒有一個節奏，我要每周參加一次銷售電話會議，這裡有一個我喜歡的銷售人員，我會嘗試加入所有的電話會議。
47:47
How do you actually operationalize these things?
你如何實際操作這些事情？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
47:50
The insights get operationalized in a number of ways.
這些見解可以通過多種方式實現。
47:53
So first is... So yeah, let's continue using FigJam as an example.
所以首先是......所以，是的，讓我們繼續使用 FigJam 作為示例。
47:59
I think, like I mentioned, Figma as a company uses FigJam for everything.
我認為，就像我提到的，Figma 作為一家公司將 FigJam 用於所有事情。
48:04
Multiple FigJam files are made per day, per meeting, et cetera.
每天、每次會議等都會製作多個 FigJam 檔。
48:09
We had this initial situation where people outside of the company were mostly using FigJam for brainstorms.
我們最初的情況是，公司以外的人大多使用 FigJam 進行頭腦風暴。
48:14
And so as we were scaling our FigJam sales team, I sort of set up a recurring cadence with the folks in our sales team in order to understand like, "Okay, what are you guys hearing?"
因此，當我們擴大 FigJam 銷售團隊的規模時，我與銷售團隊中的人建立了一種反覆的節奏，以便瞭解，「好吧，你們聽到了什麼？
48:28
And then I would share what was coming, and then I would use their input as signal as to what should be prioritized or deprioritized on the roadmap.
然後我會分享即將發生的事情，然後我會把他們的意見作為信號，說明路線圖上應該優先考慮或取消優先事項。
48:39
And they would use my signal to understand what were the various use cases that they could be pushing with the customers.
他們會使用我的信號來了解他們可以向客戶推送的各種用例。
48:45
And one thing that happened during one of the meetings was I literally walked them through, this meeting, this is how I use FigJam.
在一次會議中發生的一件事是，我真的引導他們完成了這次會議，這就是我使用 FigJam 的方式。
48:51
In this meeting, this is how I use FigJam.
在這次會議中，這就是我使用 FigJam 的方式。
48:52
In this meeting, this is how I use FigJam, blah, blah, blah.
在這次會議中，這就是我使用 FigJam 的方式，等等，等等。
48:55
And what that resulted in was I actually made a Loom video walking through my weekend FigJam, that our sales team later distributed to a bunch of companies to inspire them as to like, "Hey, not only can you use FigJam for this, you can use Fig Jam for X, Y, Z. You can use it for your team pickups.
結果是，我實際上製作了一個Loom視頻，在我的週末 FigJam中走來走去，我們的銷售團隊後來分發給一些公司，以激勵他們喜歡，“嘿，你不僅可以用 FigJam 來做這件事，你還可以把 Fig Jam 用於 X、Y、Z。您可以將其用於您的團隊接送。
49:15
You can use it for your retros.
你可以用它來做你的復古。
49:16
You can use it for planning your mom's birthday party.
你可以用它來計劃媽的生日派對。
49:20
You can use it for planning your all hands.
你可以用它來計劃你的雙手。
49:23
You can use it for sketching out the contents of what's going to go into your next deck," so on and so forth.
你可以用它來勾勒出下一個甲板的內容，“等等。
49:28
And so it basically manifests in two way, the first is having it inform the prioritization of your product roadmap.
因此，它基本上以兩種方式表現出來，第一種是讓它告知您的產品路線圖的優先順序。
49:35
And then the second is what ideally creating artifacts that the sales team can use to evangelize the things that you are seeing and the stepping stones to that vision that you creating.
第二個是理想情況下創建的工件，銷售團隊可以使用這些工件來宣傳你所看到的事物，以及你所創造的願景的墊腳石。
49:45
And then the last thing is that sometimes the conversations aren't immediately actionable, right?
49:51
Sometimes the sales team has an insight or has a request that is just objectively not feasible because the team has too much on its plate.
有時，銷售團隊有一個洞察力或一個客觀上不可行的要求，因為團隊有太多的事情要做。
49:59
Conversely, sometimes the team might have a suggestion for something that might be pitched to sales folks that's too early given the stage of the conversation.
相反，有時團隊可能會提出一些建議，考慮到對話的階段，這些建議可能還為時過早。
50:08
And for that, we basically have... We store it in Asana basically.
為此，我們基本上有...我們基本上將其存儲在 Asana 中。
50:12
We have this integration, which many companies might have, which is like Slack integration, where you can react with an Asana emoji, and then any piece of feedback that comes in from sales or from the rest of the company gets turned into a task in your backlog, and then you do a weekly grooming of that.
我們有這種集成，許多公司可能都有，就像 Slack 集成一樣，你可以用 Asana 表情符號做出反應，然後來自銷售或公司其他部門的任何反饋都會變成你待辦事項中的任務，然後你每周都會對其進行梳理。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
50:33
Amazing. 了不起。
50:33
Cool. 涼。
50:34
Very tactical and useful.
非常有戰術性和有用性。
50:36
This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
本期節目由Vanta為您帶來。
50:39
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在確保您的公司擁有一流的安全實踐時，事情很快就會變得複雜。
50:45
Now you can assess risks, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform Vanta.
現在，您可以通過單一平臺Vanta評估風險，確保客戶的信任，並自動執行SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA等法規遵從性。
50:57
Vanta's market leading trust management platform, helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risks.
Vanta是市場領先的信託管理平臺，可説明您持續監控合規性，同時報告和跟蹤風險。
51:05
Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.
此外，您還可以使用Vanta AI完成安全調查問卷，從而節省時間。
51:10
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加入數以千計的全球公司，使用Vanta自動收集證據、統一風險管理並簡化安全審查。
51:19
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當您去 Vanta 時，您可以享受 1,000 美元的折扣 vanta.com/Lenny。
51:21
That's V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny.
這 V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny。
51:28
Another thread that I've noticed, and I wasn't planning to go in this direction, but you just care so deeply about the things you work on.
我注意到的另一個線程，我不打算朝這個方向發展，但你只是非常關心你所做的事情。
51:36
You actually really, really love it and want it to be incredibly successful and feels like you're just always thinking about it.
51:42
Reminding me of this quote from your colleague Karl, they shared that, "It feels like you care deeply, which makes me care deeply.
讓我想起了你的同事卡爾的這句話，他們分享說：“感覺你很在乎，這讓我很在乎。
51:51
Who wants to be led by someone who doesn't care about what they're building?"
誰願意被一個不關心他們正在構建的東西的人領導呢？
51:54
It feels like that's an important part of the way you work and think.
感覺這是你工作和思考方式的重要組成部分。
51:58
Is there anything you want to say about that?
你對此有什麼想說的嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
52:01
When I started out my product career, I actually-
當我開始我的產品生涯時，我實際上——
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
52:03
... About that. ...關於那個。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
52:03
When I started out my product career, I actually joined as a RPM, or rotational product manager, at Meta, which was effectively a program that brought together new grad PMs, so people who had zero PM experience and taught them how to be PMs.
當我開始我的產品職業生涯時，我實際上是以 RPM 或輪崗產品經理的身份加入 Meta，這實際上是一個將新畢業的 PM 聚集在一起的計劃，因此這些人沒有 PM 經驗並教他們如何成為 PM。
52:18
And, in the beginning of this program, we had a series of conversations with leaders across the company.
而且，在這個項目開始時，我們與整個公司的領導者進行了一系列對話。
52:24
And, one particularly notable conversation was with Julie Zhu, who was the first ever intern at Meta and the VP of design.
此外，還有一次特別值得注意的對話是與 Julie Zhu 的對話，她是 Meta 的第一位實習生，也是設計副總裁。
52:33
And, she was giving us feedback and advice about how to draft compelling product strategy, etc.
而且，她還為我們提供了關於如何起草引人注目的產品策略等的反饋和建議。
52:41
And, something she said that has stuck with me throughout my entire product career is that when two people disagree about product strategy, it is because they have different assumptions.
而且，她說的一句話在我的整個產品職業生涯中一直困擾著我，那就是當兩個人對產品策略有分歧時，那是因為他們有不同的假設。
52:55
Because, if you have the same assumptions, there is no reason why a person should think, "We should do X versus we should do Y."
因為，如果你有同樣的假設，那麼一個人就沒有理由認為，「我們應該做X，而不是我們應該做Y。
53:04
And so, it's like, "Okay, how does this relate to what you were just asking about feeling deeply and caring about what you're building?"
所以，這就像，「好吧，這與你剛才問的關於深刻感受和關心你正在構建的東西有什麼關係？
53:11
I think that it's really important to not just build a roadmap because it's handed to you, or not just build an idea because it's handed to you.
我認為，不要僅僅因為路線圖交給你而建立路線圖，也不要僅僅因為它交給你而建立想法，這一點非常重要。
53:20
I think that you need to understand in the event that it's a top-down strategy, what are the assumptions that led to folks believing that that is the right idea?
我認為你需要明白，如果這是一個自上而下的策略，是什麼假設導致人們相信這是正確的想法？
53:32
And then, if it is you pushing something bottoms up, you need to be able to ensure that everyone else has the same assumptions that you have in your head that leads them to believe deeply or not believe deeply.
然後，如果是你自下而上地推動某件事，你需要能夠確保其他人都有與你腦海中相同的假設，導致他們深信或不深信。
53:43
And I think what's really important is that people can, to Carl's point, gauge someone is about a project.
我認為真正重要的是，按照卡爾的觀點，人們可以衡量某人是關於一個專案的。
53:54
And, my take is that, the more you believe in an idea, the more natural it is to be passionate about it.
而且，我的看法是，你越相信一個想法，就越自然地對它充滿熱情。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
54:02
I imagine people listening to this will feel like, "Oh shit, I don't really love what I'm working on.
我想聽到這句話的人會覺得，“哦，媽的，我真的不喜歡我正在做的事情。
54:05
I don't work at Figma.
我不在 Figma 工作。
54:08
I don't have the best of most amazing products."
我沒有最令人驚歎的產品中最好的。
54:10
Maybe it's hard to get excited about stuff.
也許很難對事情感到興奮。
54:12
Is there anything you could share there?
你有什麼可以分享的嗎？
54:14
Just say you're working on something that you're not so passionate about, is it a fine thing, keep searching, or is it just figure out something you're excited about?
只是說你正在做一些你不那麼熱衷的事情，這是一件好事，繼續尋找，還是只是弄清楚你感興趣的事情？
54:22
Any advice there for someone in that boat?
對那艘船上的人有什麼建議嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
54:25
My first piece of advice would be to not just think about the scope of what you are working on as the thing that happens to be in flight at any given moment.
我的第一條建議是，不要只把你正在做的事情的範圍看作是在任何給定時刻碰巧在飛行中的事情。
54:38
But, if you're working in a company, take a step back, understand the vision of that company, and understand your users, and understand if there's anything in that space that you are passionate about.
但是，如果你在一家公司工作，退後一步，瞭解該公司的願景，瞭解你的使用者，並瞭解該領域是否有任何你熱衷的東西。
54:54
I think it's quite easy to believe that the project that you're working on is your scope.
我認為很容易相信你正在從事的專案就是你的範圍。
54:59
My take is that your scope is the world, and to the extent that you can figure out does the idea that you're passionate about fall within your company, versus fall outside of your company, that should guide the next steps in your career.
我的看法是，你的範圍就是世界，在某種程度上，你可以弄清楚你所熱衷的想法是屬於你的公司，還是屬於你的公司之外，這應該指導你職業生涯的下一步。
55:16
And so, I think that potentially common misconception is that founding something is just for capital F founders, but I think that anyone can found something.
因此，我認為潛在的常見誤解是，創立某樣東西只是為大寫F的創始人準備的，但我認為任何人都可以找到一些東西。
55:32
You can found something inside of an existing company, you can found something from scratch.
你可以在現有公司內部找到一些東西，你可以從頭開始找到一些東西。
55:37
And, there are different reasons why you would do each, right?
而且，你做每個都有不同的原因，對吧？
55:43
The reasons why you would found inside of an existing company is if you think that there is a distribution advantage that you want to take advantage of, if there is a technical or platform advantage that you want to take advantage of.
您之所以會在現有公司內部找到，是因為如果您認為存在想要利用的分銷優勢，以及想要利用的技術或平台優勢。
55:56
Or, there's also a reality which is it's slightly less risk.
或者，還有一個現實是風險略低。
56:01
So, depending on what your risk tolerance is, you can figure out what makes sense.
因此，根據您的風險承受能力，您可以弄清楚什麼是有意義的。
56:06
There are things that are harder inside of an existing company, right?
在現有公司內部，有些事情更難，對吧？
56:09
It's harder to take an executive decision.
做出行政決定更難。
56:11
You actually cannot take an executive decision.
你實際上不能做出行政決定。
56:13
You need to receive buy-in on every single decision that you make.
你需要在你做出的每一個決定上獲得支援。
56:16
Sometimes it's harder to move faster.
有時更難更快地移動。
56:19
And then sometimes, there are things that are just different when you're starting inside of an existing company, versus starting something outright.
有時候，當你在現有公司內部開始工作時，有些事情是不同的，而不是直接開始一些事情。
56:27
So the things that are different is building a team is quite different.
因此，不同的是建立團隊是完全不同的。
56:31
The way that you recruit and the set of folks that you can recruit from, that composition is quite different.
你招募的方式和你可以招募的人群，這種構成是完全不同的。
56:37
And then, the way that you pitch and who you are pitching to is quite different.
然後，你投球的方式和你向誰投球是完全不同的。
56:42
And so, I think that sometimes, yeah, it makes sense to found inside of a company and to use that to make your flame burn, right?
所以，我認為有時候，是的，在公司內部成立並用它來讓你的火焰燃燒是有意義的，對吧？
56:50
Sometimes it makes sense to found outright.
有時直接發現是有道理的。
56:52
But I think that the first key to being passionate about what you're working on is to find an idea that you're passionate about.
但我認為，對你正在做的事情充滿熱情的第一個關鍵是找到一個你熱衷的想法。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
57:01
I love this as a metaphor of the flame where it applies both to you as a person at a company and keeping that flame going and building it.
我喜歡把它作為火焰的隱喻，它既適用於你作為公司的一員，也適用於保持火焰的延續和建設。
57:07
And then also the idea and a project that accompanies little flame that you're growing over time, building momentum around.
然後還有這個想法和一個專案，伴隨著你隨著時間的推移而成長的小火焰，圍繞著它建立動力。
57:12
So you've hinted at this whole idea of starting zero to one and building new products within larger companies, which I want to get to.
所以你已經暗示了從零到一的整個想法，並在大公司內開發新產品，我想談談。
57:19
We've gone really deep on a bunch of awesome stuff and I'm really happy we did.
我們已經深入研究了一堆很棒的東西，我真的很高興我們做到了。
57:23
There's four more skills of things you're amazing at.
還有四種你擅長的技能。
57:26
So here's an idea, let me share the four.
所以這裡有一個想法，讓我分享四個。
57:28
How about you pick two that you're most passionate about that you think you have the most advice to share, and then we'll just do those, and then we'll go to what you've learned about building something completely new at a larger company?
你選擇兩個你最熱衷的，你認為你有最多的建議可以分享，然後我們只做這些，然後我們將討論你在大公司建立全新東西的經驗？
57:39
How does that sound? 聽起來怎麼樣？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
57:40
Perfect. 完善。
Lenny Rachitsky
57:42
Okay. 好。
57:42
So, from folks that you work with, the four other skills, things you're amazing at, and I still want to hear the things you think you're not amazing at.
所以，從與你一起工作的人那裡，其他四種技能，你擅長的事情，我仍然想聽聽你認為你不擅長的事情。
57:49
One is creativity, that you have really creative solutions to problems.
一個是創造力，你有真正創造性的問題解決方案。
57:53
Two is empathy. 二是同理心。
57:55
You're really strong at empathizing with users and using that to build amazing products.
你非常善於與用戶產生共鳴，並利用它來打造令人驚歎的產品。
58:00
Three is culture. 三是文化。
58:03
Sho tells me you're the culture carrier at Figma, which is amazing, because the culture there from what I hear is amazing.
Sho 告訴我你是 Figma 的文化載體，這太棒了，因為我聽到那裡的文化令人驚歎。
58:10
And then, four is dealing with change.
然後，四是應對變化。
58:12
You're amazing at just like, "Okay, cool.
你很擅長，“好吧，很酷。
58:13
Priorities are changing. 優先事項正在發生變化。
58:15
Great, let's go. 太好了，我們走吧。
58:15
Here we go." 我們開始吧。
58:17
Which of those two feel most interesting to you?
這兩者中哪一個對你來說最有趣？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
58:21
Maybe we can do the latter two, because they're a little bit different than the other things we've been discussing.
也許我們可以做后兩個，因為它們與我們一直在討論的其他事情有點不同。
58:26
Yeah. 是的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
58:27
Sounds great. 聽起來不錯。
58:28
So, I guess culture. 所以，我猜是文化。
58:29
Let me start there. 讓我從這裏開始。
58:30
Okay, so yeah, Sho called you the culture carrier Figma.
好吧，是的，Sho 稱你為文化載體 Figma。
58:33
I hear there's some fun things you all do there.
我聽說你們都在那裡做一些有趣的事情。
58:36
There's something called the hot seat, there's something called the Figgies.
有一種叫做熱座的東西，有一種叫做Figgies的東西。
58:40
First of all, can you maybe explain these two things?
首先，你能解釋一下這兩件事嗎？
58:42
And then just broadly, what you find is important about focusing on culture as a PM?
然後從廣義上講，作為項目經理，您認為關注文化很重要嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
58:49
Yeah, I can definitely talk about those two things.
是的，我絕對可以談論這兩件事。
58:51
So, hot seat is actually a tradition I started at our first PM offsite post-pandemic.
因此，熱座實際上是我在大流行后的第一個 PM 異地開始的傳統。
58:58
So this was March of 2022.
所以這是 2022 年 3 月。
58:59
The PM team was sub-15 people at that point, and we all fit around a dinner table, which is no longer true today.
當時，PM團隊只有不到15人，我們都圍坐在一張餐桌旁，但今天已經不是這樣了。
59:09
And, it was really important to me that we all got to know each other in a context that was outside of work.
而且，對我來說，在工作之外的環境中相互瞭解真的很重要。
59:17
I think that PMing is a highly collaborative function.
我認為 PMing 是一項高度協作的功能。
59:23
And, to the extent that you have great relationships with all the teams that you're interfacing with, one is it goes a long way in terms of the product, but two, speaking about passion, it makes your day-to-day so much more fun if you feel like you're working with your friends, and if you are working with your friends.
而且，在某種程度上，你與所有與你打交道的團隊都有很好的關係，一是它在產品方面有很長的路要走，但二，說到激情，如果你覺得你正在和你的朋友一起工作，如果你和你的朋友一起工作，它會讓你的日常變得更加有趣。
59:39
And so, we were coming out of a long intense day session, and I was thinking about, "Okay, how do we break the ice?"
因此，我們結束了漫長而緊張的一天，我在想，「好吧，我們如何打破僵局？
59:47
And, hot seat is this game where you go around the table and each person gets two minutes on the clock and everyone else at the table can ask them anything.
而且，熱座位是這個遊戲，你繞著桌子走，每個人都有兩分鐘的時間，桌子上的其他人都可以問他們任何事情。
59:56
And if they want to, they can decline to answer.
如果他們願意，他們可以拒絕回答。
59:59
But we try and keep it, generally speaking, quite friendly and comfortable for folks.
60:05
And so, we kicked off this game.
於是，我們開始了這場比賽。
60:08
And, what was really interesting was earlier that day we had done a personality test, as a side note, our PM team is obsessed with personality tests.
而且，真正有趣的是，那天早些時候我們做了一個性格測試，順便說一句，我們的PM團隊癡迷於性格測試。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
60:17
Which personality test, by the way?
順便說一句，哪種性格測試？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
60:19
We to this day say the best one was the one that we did at this offsite, which is the Strengths Finder test.
直到今天，我們仍然說最好的測試是我們在這個異地所做的測試，即 Strengths Finder 測試。
60:25
And, what had basically happened was over the course of that morning, we had all dug into... We were saying, "What are our strengths?
而且，基本上發生的事情是，在那天早上，我們都深入研究了......我們說，「我們的優勢是什麼？
60:33
What are our weaknesses?"
我們的弱點是什麼？
60:34
Etc. 等。
60:34
And we had this really fun foundation to build on during the game of hot seat, where it was like, we were digging into like, "What about people's backgrounds made them think the way that they do today?
在熱座遊戲中，我們有一個非常有趣的基礎，就像，我們正在深入研究，「人們的背景是什麼讓他們以今天的方式思考？
60:44
And, what random anecdote at age seven of playing catch with their dad in the field led to how they thought about auto layout?
而且，七歲時和父親在野外玩接球的隨機軼事導致了他們對汽車佈局的看法？
60:52
Blah, blah, blah, blah." 廢話，廢話，廢話，廢話。
60:54
And, I think that being able to understand what motivates a person is so important when you're working with them, and also just in building a connection with them.
而且，我認為，當你與他們一起工作時，能夠理解是什麼激勵了一個人，以及與他們建立聯繫時，這一點非常重要。
61:04
And so, that was this moment that really brought the whole team together.
所以，正是這一刻真正將整個團隊凝聚在一起。
61:09
Something that I was really gratified to hear after is that, since then, hot seat has become a tradition within the company.
之後，我非常高興地聽到，從那時起，熱門座位已成為公司內部的傳統。
61:16
And so, all the PMs went on to play it with their own teams.
因此，所有的 PM 都繼續與自己的團隊一起玩。
61:18
Yuki and Sho went on to play it with the exec team, so on and so forth.
Yuki 和 Sho 繼續與執行團隊一起玩，等等。
61:22
And so, it's become this thing that now anytime that someone joins the team, okay, you put them in the hot seat.
所以，現在每當有人加入團隊時，你就會把他們放在熱門位置。
61:27
And then, if you're meeting someone's significant other, you put them in the hot seat.
61:32
And it's this thing that is just totally spread, but it's a really fun way to just get to know folks and what drives them.
正是這個東西完全傳播開來，但這是一種非常有趣的方式，可以了解人們以及驅動他們的因素。
61:39
So, that's one of my favorites.
所以，這是我的最愛之一。
61:41
I highly recommend. 我強烈推薦。
61:42
The second thing that you asked about, which was the Figgies.
你問的第二件事，是Figgies。
61:45
And, this is basically an Oscar style awards ceremony that was hacked together.
而且，這基本上是一個奧斯卡風格的頒獎典禮，被駭客入侵了。
61:53
And so, where the Figgies was inspired from was actually every year we have... I was mentioning like SKO, our sales kickoff.
因此，Figgies 的靈感來自我們實際上每年都有......我剛才提到的是SKO，我們的銷售開始了。
62:03
And, on the last night of SKO, there's this award ceremony, where they appreciate all of the incredible work that has taken place in the sales and marketing org.
而且，在SKO的最後一晚，有這個頒獎典禮，他們感謝銷售和營銷組織中發生的所有令人難以置信的工作。
62:13
And I saw this and I was like, "This is incredible.
我看到這個，我想，“這太不可思議了。
62:16
We should absolutely be celebrating the product team as well when we're together."
當我們在一起時，我們絕對也應該慶祝產品團隊。
62:21
And so, what I did was I basically took our Figma boardroom, which is called Bigma, and worked with another PM Elan to deck it out, and a red carpet, gold curtains, etc.
所以，我所做的基本上是把我們的 Figma 會議室，叫做 Bigma，和另一位 PM Elan 一起裝飾它，還有紅地毯、金色窗簾等。
62:38
And we bought little Oscar trophies for everyone, and got their names written on it, and voted people in for all of these absurd categories, like most likely to name their child Figma, most likely to go their career without writing a PRD.
我們給每個人買了小小的奧斯卡獎盃，把他們的名字寫在上面，然後投票給所有這些荒謬的類別的人，比如最有可能給他們的孩子取名 Figma，最有可能在不寫 PRD 的情況下繼續他們的職業生涯。
62:53
Blah, blah, blah. 廢話，廢話，廢話。
62:55
And, of course, forced everyone to give some acceptance speech.
而且，當然，迫使每個人都發表了一些獲獎感言。
62:59
But, I think that making people feel appreciated for even just the quirks and the energy that they bring to the team is something that's incredibly important.
但是，我認為讓人們感到被欣賞，哪怕只是他們給團隊帶來的怪癖和能量，也是非常重要的事情。
63:10
And celebrating that diversity together is something that I think goes a long way in terms of making people feel close, and also making people understand maybe someone who they don't know that well on the PM team, because then you learn, "Okay, beyond them having this Zoom background, this is what's cheeky about them.
我認為，一起慶祝這種多樣性在讓人們感到親近方面有很長的路要走，也讓人們了解他們在PM團隊中可能不太瞭解的人，因為這樣你就會知道，“好吧，除了他們有這個 Zoom 背景之外，這就是他們的厚顏無恥。
63:29
Or this is what's interesting or unique about them."
或者這就是他們的有趣或獨特之處。
63:31
And so, I think that culture is so important.
所以，我認為文化是如此重要。
63:36
Figma has this core value called play, which I love, which really emphasizes just that everyone should be having fun at all times, and work should be fun, and gathering should be fun.
Figma 有一個核心價值觀叫做遊戲，我喜歡它，它真正強調的只是每個人都應該隨時玩得開心，工作應該很有趣，聚會應該很有趣。
63:48
And I think that I personally am a huge believer in this remote first role that we live in, you also want to take advantage of those times when you're able to get together and do things that make the team feel geographically close, even when they're geographically spread out.
而且我認為，我個人非常相信我們所處的這個遠端第一角色，你也想利用那些能夠聚在一起做一些事情的時間，讓團隊在地理上感覺很接近，即使他們在地理上分散。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
64:09
Oh man, it's so fun.
哦，夥計，這太有趣了。
64:10
And I love that it's just like, you did this, right?
我喜歡它就像，你這樣做了，對吧？
64:12
It's not like Dylan is adding all these rituals to the team.
這並不是說迪倫正在向團隊添加所有這些儀式。
64:16
It's very bottom up. 這是非常自下而上的。
64:18
And, in theory, any PM on the team could have done this.
而且，從理論上講，團隊中的任何項目經理都可以做到這一點。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
64:21
It's interesting, something that I had heard, Vishal Shah, who was the former head of product at Instagram say, is that, often in companies culture is set top down, and then the innovation that comes out of that is bottoms up.
有趣的是，我聽說過，Instagram前產品主管維沙爾·沙阿（Vishal Shah）說，在公司中，文化通常是自上而下的，然後由此產生的創新是自下而上的。
64:36
And so, I think in the first place, having a value like play does a lot in order to make folks feel like these things are celebrated and time should be carved out for them.
所以，我認為首先，擁有像遊戲這樣的價值可以讓人們覺得這些事情是值得慶祝的，應該為他們騰出時間。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
64:49
To come back to your original point of just culture is everything, a lot of PMs are like, "I have so much work to do.
回到你最初的觀點，文化就是一切，很多項目經理都說，“我有很多工作要做。
64:53
I have so many things to do.
我有很多事情要做。
64:55
I'm just working all day every day."
我每天都在工作一整天。
64:57
What can you tell them about why this is so important and worth putting some time into?
您能告訴他們為什麼這如此重要並且值得花時間嗎？
65:01
And should everybody? 每個人都應該嗎？
65:02
Or is it just like, "If you're excited about this, do it.
或者只是說，“如果你對此感到興奮，那就去做吧。
65:04
If not, don't worry"? 如果沒有，請不要擔心“？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
65:06
I think culture is important in that it establishes trust between groups of people.
我認為文化很重要，因為它在人群之間建立了信任。
65:12
And so, I think that actually earlier you were asking about passion and what makes someone feel passionate about work.
所以，我認為實際上早些時候你問的是激情，是什麼讓一個人對工作充滿熱情。
65:23
And I think realistically, that passion breaks down into two things.
我認為現實地，這種激情可以分解為兩件事。
65:27
One is, are you passionate about the vision that you're building towards?
一個是，你是否對你正在建立的願景充滿熱情？
65:30
Which we spoke about. 我們談到了。
65:32
But the second thing is, are you passionate about the people who you work with?
但第二件事是，你對與你一起工作的人充滿熱情嗎？
65:35
And, I think that roadmaps change, products change, but feeling a connection to the folks that you're working with make you much more durable as a team.
而且，我認為路線圖會改變，產品也會改變，但與你一起工作的人建立聯繫會讓你作為一個團隊更加持久。
65:46
It means that when times get tough, which they will, your gut instinct is to rally together and collaborate together to find a solution, rather than to jump ship or something.
這意味著，當情況變得艱難時，你的直覺是團結起來，共同合作尋找解決方案，而不是跳槽或其他什麼。
65:58
I think personally, I'm in love with my team.
我認為就我個人而言，我愛上了我的團隊。
66:01
They give me so much joy and happiness on a daily basis.
他們每天都給我帶來如此多的快樂和幸福。
66:04
I was telling them the other day that when they post prototypes in our Slack channel, sometimes I get little flutters in my chest like when you have a crush on someone.
前幾天我告訴他們，當他們在我們的 Slack 頻道上發佈原型時，有時我的胸口會有點顫動，就像你暗戀某人一樣。
66:14
And, I think that having that emotional connection to your team is fun.
而且，我認為與團隊建立這種情感聯繫很有趣。
66:19
And I think that emotional connection comes from investing in culture.
我認為這種情感聯繫來自對文化的投資。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
66:26
And again, it's like, you did it.
再一次，就像，你做到了。
66:27
You made it happen, right?
你做到了，對吧？
66:28
It's not like, "Oh, this sucks.
這並不是說，“哦，這很糟糕。
66:29
My team's no fun." 我的團隊沒什麼好玩的。
66:30
It's like, you can make it more fun.
就像，你可以讓它更有趣。
66:32
And I think the two examples you shared are awesome, because one is a high-end version where there's a lot of work.
我認為你分享的兩個例子很棒，因為一個是高端版本，有很多工作要做。
66:37
And the hot seat, it's just a quick idea that takes no work, just an idea, and then you just ask to do it, and it's there.
而熱門座位，它只是一個不需要工作，只需要一個想法，然後你只需要要求去做，它就在那裡。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
66:44
Okay, so actually, I want to combat the perception that the Figgy's was a high production, high cost thing.
好吧，所以實際上，我想打破 Figgy 是一種高產量、高成本的東西的看法。
66:49
It was very low cost.
這是非常低的成本。
66:50
I ordered everything on Amazon and assembled it in an hour.
我在亞馬遜上訂購了所有東西，並在一個小時內組裝好了。
66:54
And so, there are ways to be scrappy in making things come together.
因此，有一些方法可以使事情走到一起。
66:58
And so, I would say, don't be intimidated by any idea of being too large to take on.
所以，我想說，不要被任何太大而無法接受的想法所嚇倒。
67:05
Just go for it. 去吧。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
67:08
That's an awesome correction.
這是一個很棒的修正。
67:11
Okay, final trait you're great at.
好吧，最後一個你擅長的特質。
67:13
Somebody shared that you pivot with grace and enthusiasm when things change and priorities change, projects are killed, projects are spun up.
有人分享說，當事情發生變化，優先事項發生變化，專案被扼殺，專案被啟動時，你會優雅而熱情地轉向。
67:22
There's something that a lot of people at companies just get so sad about, "Oh my God, things keep changing.
公司里的很多人都對一些事情感到非常難過，“哦，天哪，事情一直在變化。
67:28
My project's killed. 我的專案被扼殺了。
67:29
Oh, this priority changed."
噢，這個優先順序變了。
67:31
It feels like you've learned to make that a superpower.
感覺就像你已經學會了讓它成為一種超能力。
67:34
What can you share about what you've learned there and how to leverage that into doing great and being successful?
你能分享一下你在那裡學到的東西，以及如何利用它來做偉大的事情並取得成功嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
67:40
For this one, I could actually maybe give an example that preceded my product career, which was, when I was in college, I actually founded a national design conference for students across the country.
對於這個，我實際上可以舉一個例子，在我的產品生涯之前，當我上大學的時候，我實際上為全國各地的學生建立了一個全國性的設計會議。
67:55
And the way that this came about was when I was in college, design was very much having a watershed moment in tech.
而這一切的發生方式是在我上大學的時候，設計在科技領域有一個分水嶺。
68:03
So, companies like Airbnb and Pinterest were leading an industry and they were leading not just because they built technology and made it accessible, but because they were really using the interface layer to differentiate.
因此，像Airbnb和Pinterest這樣的公司正在引領一個行業，他們之所以處於領先地位，不僅是因為他們構建了技術並使其易於訪問，還因為他們確實在使用介面層來區分。
68:18
So there was this point where software had reached a certain level of saturation, where things that were not possible were now suddenly possible, and now suddenly possible in multiple companies.
因此，軟體已經達到了一定程度的飽和度，不可能的事情現在突然成為可能，現在在多家公司中突然成為可能。
68:29
And design became this differentiator, which is really exciting.
設計成為這個差異化因素，這真的很令人興奮。
68:32
But at the same time, none of this was reflected in most schools across the country.
但與此同時，這些都沒有反映在全國大多數學校中。
68:39
And so, I went to Princeton and there was nothing that resembled product design in our curriculum.
於是，我去了普林斯頓大學，我們的課程中沒有類似產品設計的東西。
68:45
And this was baffling to me, because I was like, "There is such clear momentum..." Speaking about momentum in industry about this being a profession that is so important and so influential in building the next generation of companies.
這讓我感到困惑，因為我想，“有如此明顯的勢頭......”談到工業的發展勢頭，這是一個對建立下一代公司如此重要和如此有影響力的職業。
69:01
Yet, the groundwork to make that happen wasn't really there.
然而，實現這一目標的基礎並不存在。
69:04
And then, I interned at Facebook, and I realized that my entire class of 25 interns had very similar experiences, where they too were self-taught product designers.
然後，我在 Facebook 實習，我意識到我整個班級的 25 名實習生都有非常相似的經歷，他們也是自學成才的產品設計師。
69:13
And so, that summer, I actually watched a documentary that was coincidentally produced by Envision that featured folks like John Maeda, amongst others, and was talking about how design changed the world that we lived in, and was going to rewrite the future, which I really believed in.
所以，那年夏天，我看了一部紀錄片，這部紀錄片恰巧是由 Envision 製作的，其中有 John Maeda 等人，講述了設計如何改變了我們生活的世界，並將改寫未來，我真的相信這一點。
69:30
And so, I was incentivized to found this conference called Design Nation that would democratize access to a design education and bring together top students from across the country with industry leaders.
因此，我受到激勵，創辦了這個名為“設計國家”的會議，該會議將使設計教育的普及，並將來自全國各地的頂尖學生與行業領導者聚集在一起。
69:43
And originally, my plan was to build this within an organization that already existed at Princeton, because they had the funding, they had the resources, they had the expertise in order to make this a reality.
最初，我的計劃是在普林斯頓大學已經存在的一個組織內建立這個，因為他們有資金，他們有資源，他們有專業知識，可以實現這一目標。
69:55
And then, what actually ended up happening was they too were skeptical of the business value of design and didn't think it would be possible for something like this to be funded.
然後，實際發生的事情是，他們也對設計的商業價值持懷疑態度，並且認為這樣的事情不可能獲得資助。
70:04
And so, I went from building something in a situation where I thought finances, expenditures, connections, et cetera, were totally taken care of, to having none of that and needing to build it from the ground up.
因此，我從在我認為財務、支出、人脈等都得到完全照顧的情況下構建一些東西，到沒有這些，需要從頭開始構建它。
70:18
And, it was funny, one of the best pieces of advice I got in college was, don't underestimate the power for .edu email address.
而且，有趣的是，我在大學里得到的最好的建議之一是，不要低估 .edu 電子郵件位址的力量。
70:24
And I just went on a spree, cold emailing so many people, so many executives about this problem that I was trying to solve.
然後我就瘋狂地發了一封電子郵件，給這麼多人，這麼多高管發了一封關於我試圖解決的問題的冷電子郵件。
70:34
And, what actually ended up happening was people would hop on the phone with me, and a lot of the folks who I spoke to, designers who I really admire, like Daniel Burke, Jamie [inaudible 01:10:46], et cetera, were folks who would be like, "Oh my God, this was such a problem when I was in college.
而且，實際發生的事情是人們會和我通電話，和我交談過的很多人，我非常欽佩的設計師，比如丹尼爾·伯克、傑米 [聽不清 01：10：46] 等等，他們會說，“哦，天哪，這在我上大學的時候就是這樣一個問題。
70:52
Of course I'll help you solve it.
我當然會幫你解決。
70:54
I can't believe it hasn't been solved yet."
我簡直不敢相信它還沒有得到解決。
70:56
And so, ultimately, it grew into this conference that lasted many years, brought together folks from originally around the country, then more recently around the world.
因此，最終，它發展成為這個持續多年的會議，彙集了來自全國各地的人們，然後是最近世界各地的人們。
71:06
And ultimately, did live under that broader organization.
最終，確實生活在那個更廣泛的組織之下。
71:09
But I think, having the ability to, in the absence of formal backing or something, still chase after something and maybe pivot the way that you're thinking about it, or pivot the way that you are allocating your own time.
但我認為，在沒有正式支援或其他東西的情況下，有能力仍然追逐某件事，也許可以改變你思考它的方式，或者改變你分配自己時間的方式。
71:26
Maybe suddenly speakers is not the most important thing, fundraising is the most important thing.
也許突然間演講者不是最重要的事情，籌款才是最重要的事情。
71:32
Or, building a hype landing page so that you seem more legit than a very scrappy few-person student organization is the most important thing.
或者，建立一個炒作登陸頁面，讓你看起來比一個非常鬥志昂揚的少數人學生組織更合法，這是最重要的事情。
71:43
And just being quite adaptable when it comes to resourcing, I think is very important.
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
71:48
That's an awesome example.
這是一個很好的例子。
71:49
It shows another trait, Mahika, in our archeological study, which has come up a bunch, and I'm just putting my finger on it, is just high agency.
它顯示了另一個特徵，Mahika，在我們的考古研究中，已經出現了一堆，我只是把我的手指放在上面，只是高度的能動性。
72:02
It feels like you're just consistently just like, "I'll make this happen myself.
感覺就像你總是在說，“我會自己實現這一點。
72:06
This problem exists. 存在此問題。
72:07
We need more product designers in school.
我們需要更多的產品設計師在學校里。
72:10
I will solve that problem."
我會解決這個問題的。
72:11
And I love that. 我喜歡這一點。
72:13
And by the way, Design Nation for folks that want to explore that, how do they find that?
順便說一句，Design Nation 為那些想要探索它的人，他們如何找到它？
72:17
And it's still going, right?
而且它還在繼續，對吧？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
72:19
Yeah. 是的。
72:21
So, you can Google Design Nation.
所以，你可以谷歌設計國家。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
72:24
Okay. 好。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
72:24
And, we have a Instagram page amongst other things.
而且，我們還有一個 Instagram 頁面。
72:27
And, yeah, last year we had folks like Stuart Weitzman and Joe Gebbia, who's one of the co-founders of Airbnb come and speak, which was super exciting.
是的，去年我們邀請了像Stuart Weitzman和Joe Gebbia這樣的人，他是Airbnb的聯合創始人之一，這非常令人興奮。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
72:37
Awesome. 棒。
72:37
And then, who is it for?
然後，它是為誰準備的？
72:38
It's for students? 是給學生的嗎？
72:39
People in college that want to learn to be designers?
大學生想學習成為設計師嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
72:41
Yeah, it's for design-driven college students.
是的，它是為設計驅動的大學生準備的。
72:43
I think one thing to call out is that one of my focuses in the early years was to ensure that this is for, not just capital D designers, but design driven students.
我認為需要指出的一件事是，我早年的重點之一是確保這不僅適用於大寫的 D 設計師，而且適用於設計驅動的學生。
72:56
So, we also took engineers who are very design minded and marketers who are very design minded, et cetera, because of that core belief that the most innovative solutions will come out of people that are operating at this intersectionality.
因此，我們還聘請了非常有設計意識的工程師和非常有設計意識的營銷人員，等等，因為他們的核心信念是，最具創新性的解決方案將來自在這種交叉性中工作的人。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
73:13
Okay. 好。
73:15
So we've talked about all kinds of things you're amazing at.
因此，我們已經討論了您擅長的各種事情。
73:18
Before we transition to what you've learned about just building new stuff at larger companies, which you're very good at, can you just bullet point the skills you find you're not good at?
在我們過渡到你所學到的關於在大公司構建新東西之前，你非常擅長，你能指出你發現你不擅長的技能嗎？
73:28
I said we would come to this.
我說我們會來的。
73:30
What do you think you're not good at?
你認為自己不擅長什麼？
73:31
And we won't go too deep here, unless you want.
除非你願意，否則我們不會在這裡太深入。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
73:34
So it's interesting, because I think that there are many things that we talked about that are actually a double-edged sword in practice.
所以這很有趣，因為我認為我們談到的很多事情在實踐中實際上是一把雙刃劍。
73:42
So, let's start with the conviction piece.
所以，讓我們從信念開始。
73:44
I think that the good thing about being high conviction is that you're able to sell forward and to get people to feel strongly about something and a next step in the future.
我認為，高信念的好處是，你能夠向前推銷，讓人們對未來的某件事和下一步有強烈的感覺。
73:57
I think the downside of that is if there is less of a history of working together, there might be skepticism about like, "Oh, are you just pushing something because you believe in it?
我認為這樣做的缺點是，如果合作的歷史較少，可能會有人懷疑，“哦，你只是因為相信它而推動某事嗎？
74:07
Or are you pushing something because our users actually needed it?"
或者你是在推動一些東西，因為我們的用戶確實需要它？
74:10
And so, in those moments, it becomes really important to constantly be highlighting user proof points.
因此，在這些時刻，不斷強調用戶證明點變得非常重要。
74:17
I think, the second is scrappiness.
我認為，第二個是鬥志昂揚。
74:20
So, I think I have a very high ability to thrive in ambiguity and to pull things together last minute.
所以，我認為我有很高的能力，可以在模棱兩可中茁壯成長，並在最後一刻把事情整合在一起。
74:28
So, for example, it's very common that I am editing a product review deck minutes before we are about to present, or that I haven't started until the night before and stay up until 3:00 AM to do it.
因此，例如，我經常在即將演示前幾分鐘編輯產品評論幻燈片，或者直到前一天晚上才開始並熬夜到淩晨 3：00 才完成。
74:38
And this is somewhat fine.
這有點好。
74:41
But then, I think that other people don't always love it, because they're like, "Hey, maybe let's start earlier next time."
但是，我認為其他人並不總是喜歡它，因為他們會說，「嘿，也許下次讓我們早點開始吧。
74:48
I get that. 我明白了。
74:49
The third piece would be I get very consumed by the details of something.
第三部分是我被某事的細節所吸引。
75:01
And I think in a lot of instances, this is great.
我認為在很多情況下，這很棒。
75:04
Also, at a certain point, sometimes you want to defer those decisions.
此外，在某個時候，有時您想推遲這些決定。
75:08
And so, that's also an important skill to learn.
因此，這也是一項需要學習的重要技能。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
75:11
Awesome. 棒。
75:11
Thanks for sharing all that.
感謝您分享所有這些。
75:12
This touches on something that came up in a previous podcast episode.
這觸及了之前播客節目中出現的問題。
75:16
Nikhil from Meta had this really interesting metaphor, where every superpower has a shadow.
來自 Meta 的 Nikhil 有一個非常有趣的比喻，每個超級大國都有一個影子。
75:22
Basically, everything you're amazing at, there's something that'll be a problem, a liability basically for you.
基本上，你所擅長的一切，都會有一些東西成為問題，基本上是你的負擔。
75:29
And so, I think, what you're pointing out is you're amazing at some of these things, but there's downsides.
所以，我認為，你所指出的是，你在其中一些事情上很了不起，但也有缺點。
75:34
And I think that's really important for people to know.
我認為這對人們來說非常重要。
75:35
And we already talked about just something you believe that I also believe, it's just, you'll have things you're not good at, focus on things you're amazing at, and just getting better at those things, and use that to achieve, because it ends up being a lot more.
我們已經談到了你相信的事情，我也相信，只是，你會有你不擅長的事情，專注於你擅長的事情，並在這些事情上做得更好，並利用它來實現，因為它最終會變得更多。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
75:48
Also, building off of that is as you scale your team, it's really important to be self-aware of what those blind spots are and to hire for that.
此外，在此基礎上，當你擴大你的團隊時，自我意識到這些盲點是什麼併為此進行招聘非常重要。
76:00
Because, you want individuals to be spiky and you want team to be well-rounded.
因為，你希望個人是尖銳的，你希望團隊是全面的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
76:06
That's a great segue to talking about building completely new things at large companies.
這是談論在大公司建立全新事物的一個很好的開端。
76:12
So, what I hear is you're the go-to person for zero-to-one stuff at Figma, which is incredible.
76:16
Figma is one of the most admired, successful tech companies in the world.
Figma 是世界上最受尊敬、最成功的科技公司之一。
76:20
And, you're the person people look to build completely new stuff.
而且，你是人們希望構建全新東西的人。
76:25
So, first of all, why are you so passionate about this stuff?
所以，首先，你為什麼對這些東西如此熱情？
76:29
Why do you want to be working on brand new stuff like this?
你為什麼想做這樣全新的東西？
76:32
And why is it important for companies to be good at this?
為什麼公司擅長這一點很重要？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
76:37
In order for a company to stay competitive, a company needs to stay entrepreneurial.
為了讓公司保持競爭力，公司需要保持企業家精神。
76:43
If you are not constantly thinking about what's next, defining the industry standard, seeing around the corner from your competitors, you will get taken over.
如果你不經常思考下一步是什麼，定義行業標準，看到競爭對手的拐角處，你就會被接管。
76:53
That is a reality. 這是現實。
76:54
And so, consequently, I personally love to screen for very entrepreneurial companies and companies that have that culture.
因此，我個人喜歡篩選非常有創業精神的公司和擁有這種文化的公司。
77:03
And so, Figma has this huge run with it culture, where run with it is also one of our core values, and it's really encouraged that people can just sprint off in a direction that is seen not as a distraction, but rather a manifestation of the company's values.
因此，Figma 擁有這種巨大的 Run with it 文化，其中 Run with it 也是我們的核心價值觀之一，我們非常鼓勵人們可以朝著一個不被視為分心的方向衝刺，而是公司價值觀的體現。
77:22
And so, at the company, some of our most monumental launches have come out of hackathons and have come out of bottoms up projects.
因此，在公司，我們一些最具紀念意義的發佈來自駭客馬拉松，來自自下而上的專案。
77:32
So recently, this week we had a launch of Multi-edit, which was a long clamored for a feature where folks can edit things across multiple frames at the same time.
所以最近，本周我們推出了多重編輯，這是一個長期以來呼籲人們可以同時在多個幀上編輯內容的功能。
77:41
That was a multi-year, multi-product long initiative.
這是一項為期多年、涉及多種產品的長期計劃。
77:48
We have things like Jambot, which is an AI plugin inside of FigJam that has come out of an AI hackathon that we had last year.
我們有像 Jambot 這樣的東西，它是 FigJam 內部的一個 AI 外掛程式，它來自我們去年的 AI 駭客馬拉松。
77:56
Our entire widgets platform was originally a hackathon project.
我們的整個小部件平臺最初是一個駭客馬拉松專案。
78:00
And so, there's this culture of celebrating things-
所以，有一種慶祝事物的文化——
78:03
... project. ...專案。
78:03
And so there's this culture of celebrating things that have been pushed bottoms up.
78:06
And so constantly thinking about how can people within the company be entrepreneurial, both in terms of getting new products up to users and in terms of improving internal processes, is just a culture that you constantly want to be facilitating and leading into.
因此，不斷思考公司內部的人如何才能具有創業精神，無論是在向使用者提供新產品方面，還是在改進內部流程方面，都是一種你不斷想要促進和引導的文化。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
78:20
Awesome. 棒。
78:20
And clearly, Figma is very good at this.
顯然，Figma 非常擅長這一點。
78:24
Let's dive a little deeper.
讓我們更深入地瞭解一下。
78:26
Say, somebody wants to make their culture more entrepreneurial or wants to become better at this individually, maybe just broadly, what does it take to do this well, to go from idea to, "Okay, that's a huge new product for a business"?
比如說，有人想讓他們的文化更具創業精神，或者想在這方面做得更好，也許只是從廣義上講，如何才能做好這件事，從想法變成，「好吧，這對企業來說是一個巨大的新產品」？
78:41
What have you learned just broadly, what are kind of the steps or the important elements of that, well?
你從廣義上學到了什麼，其中有哪些步驟或重要元素？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
78:46
I think that there's this interesting metaphor that you were calling out earlier about a zero-to-one project being like a flame.
我認為有一個有趣的比喻，你之前提到過，一個零到一的專案就像一團火焰。
78:55
And flames are interesting, because they're sort of destined to die at the end of the day.
火焰很有意思，因為它們註定要在一天結束時死去。
79:02
And I think about the person who is pushing a zero-to-one idea as kind of being the keeper of the flame.
我認為那些推動從零到一的想法的人是火焰的守護者。
79:13
And in particular, there's this metaphor that really sticks with me, which is in Greek mythology, all the gods sit on Mount Olympus, and there's this Goddess Hestia who is the keeper of the hearth, and it is her job to always keep the hearth burning, even when all the gods peace out to go on their various quests.
特別是，有一個比喻讓我印象深刻，那就是在希臘神話中，所有的神都坐在奧林匹斯山上，還有一位女神赫斯提亞，她是壁爐的守護者，她的工作是始終保持壁爐燃燒，即使所有的神都平靜下來繼續他們的各種任務。
79:36
And I kind of think about the person or the team or the group of people who are pushing a zero-to-one idea as being the Hestias or the keepers of the hearth.
79:45
And it is your job to stoke the flames and the embers if they are at risk of dying out.
如果火焰和餘燼有熄滅的危險，你的工作就是點燃它們。
79:50
And it is also your job to ensure that the idea can spread like wildfire and can build that level of hype you need for an entire company or an entire set of people to be clamoring for something to get built.
你的工作是確保這個想法可以像野火一樣傳播開來，並可以建立你需要的那種炒作水準，讓整個公司或整個人都吵著要建立一些東西。
80:04
And so more concretely, I think that there are three things you need to do in order to be successful at bringing an idea into existence.
所以更具體地說，我認為你需要做三件事才能成功地將一個想法變成現實。
80:12
The first is you need to have the right idea, right?
首先，你需要有正確的想法，對吧？
80:15
And that's the empathy piece.
這就是同理心。
80:16
That's the piece that you will get from having conversations day in, day out with your users.
這就是你從與用戶日復一日的對話中得到的。
80:20
The second is you need to secure buy-in for that idea.
其次，你需要確保對這個想法的支援。
80:23
So that's the vision piece.
這就是願景。
80:24
You need to be able to rally an entire set of folks, but honestly, most importantly, your leadership and your team behind an idea.
你需要能夠召集一整群人，但老實說，最重要的是，你的領導和你的團隊支援一個想法。
80:33
And then, the third is you need to be able to make it spread like that wildfire.
然後，第三個是你需要能夠讓它像野火一樣蔓延。
80:38
You need to get it to a point where someone joins the company and they're like, "Oh, what is that flame burning there?
你需要讓它達到一個地步，當有人加入公司時，他們會說，“哦，那火焰在燃燒什麼？
80:47
And how can I learn more about that?"
我怎樣才能更多地瞭解這一點？
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
80:50
Coming up with a great idea, getting buy-in for your idea, and then spreading it within the organization, what have you learned about how to actually come up with an idea that is actually a good idea?
想出一個好主意，獲得對你的想法的支持，然後在組織內傳播它，你學到了什麼關於如何真正想出一個真正是一個好主意的想法？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
80:59
So it's funny because the current product that I'm working on actually came out of a conversation or a set of conversations where I was pitching FigJam to people.
所以這很有趣，因為我目前正在開發的產品實際上是在我向人們推銷 FigJam 的一次或一組對話中產生的。
81:11
And so kind of speaking about constantly having these user conversations, I think in order to have the right idea, there are two key elements.
因此，談到不斷進行這些使用者對話，我認為為了獲得正確的想法，有兩個關鍵要素。
81:21
The first is you need to have that user empathy.
首先，你需要有使用者的同理心。
81:23
You need to be constantly having conversations with your users, diving into what are their pain points, not only about the product that you're working on, but general perceptions about your company and also general perceptions about the other tools or products that they might be using on a daily basis.
你需要不斷地與你的使用者進行對話，深入瞭解他們的痛點是什麼，不僅是關於你正在開發的產品，還有對你公司的一般看法，以及對他們每天可能使用的其他工具或產品的一般看法。
81:38
It's not enough to have a perspective on how well you are competing in the market, but you also need to know, like understand a person's full end-to-end tooling usage.
僅僅瞭解您在市場上的競爭情況是不夠的，您還需要瞭解，例如瞭解一個人的完整端到端工具使用方式。
81:48
And then, the second thing is you need to ensure that what you're kind of working towards ladders into a company goal.
然後，第二件事是你需要確保你正在努力實現公司目標。
81:57
And so something that's very top of mind at Figma or something that has been very top of mind at Figma has been how do we go from building for designers to covering the entire product development cycle and expanding to non-designers in particular.
82:15
And non-designers is kind of this bucket term that we use for PMs and developers and marketers and so on and so forth, but how can we ensure that our tooling suite is reflective of all the different stakeholders that make the product development process what it is, and so I think that, yeah, just constantly having the conversation with the users and also constantly being anchored around not what are you currently working on, but what is the broader company goal is something that will help you come up with the right idea.
非設計師是我們用於專案經理、開發人員和營銷人員等的術語，但是我們如何確保我們的工具套件能夠反映所有不同的利益相關者，這些利益相關者使產品開發過程成為現實，所以我認為，是的，只是不斷地與用戶進行對話，並不斷地錨定而不是你目前在做什麼， 但是，更廣泛的公司目標是説明您提出正確想法的東西。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
82:48
Such an important point, basically understanding the business, not just, "Here's my feature, here's my product, or here's what feels like a great cool thing to build."
如此重要的一點，基本上是了解業務，而不僅僅是，“這是我的功能，這是我的產品，或者這裡感覺很酷的東西。
82:56
Okay, so that's the idea getting buy-in.
好的，這就是獲得支援的想法。
83:00
What have you learned about how to do that?
關於如何做到這一點，你學到了什麼？
83:01
Well, clearly, you've been very successful, because we've talked about a lot of these things, building hype, creating a big vision.
嗯，很明顯，你已經非常成功了，因為我們已經談過很多這樣的事情，建立炒作，創造一個宏大的願景。
83:08
What else there that we haven't talked about that you think is really important?
還有什麼我們沒有談過的，你認為真的很重要？
Mihika Kapoor
83:12
I think the key to being successful at zero-to-one is to honestly have optimism that borders on delusion.
我認為在零到一中取得成功的關鍵是誠實地保持近乎妄想的樂觀態度。
83:22
You need to have insane, almost like reality distortion field where you don't hear the word no, or at the very least, you translate it into a not yet.
你需要有一個瘋狂的，幾乎就像現實扭曲的領域，你沒有聽到“不”這個詞，或者至少，你把它翻譯成一個還沒有。
83:37
And so I think that in terms of pitching, I'll be honest, my first few pitches of this idea were not successful.
所以我認為，在投球方面，老實說，我對這個想法的前幾次投球都沒有成功。
83:46
What basically happened was kind of like both conviction, the idea by talking to users, and then I would have ad hoc conversations with folks around the company, and I would be like, "We should do this."
基本上發生的事情有點像信念，通過與使用者交談的想法，然後我會與公司周圍的人進行臨時對話，我會說，“我們應該這樣做。
83:57
And they would be like, "Maybe."
他們會說，“也許吧。
84:00
And I would be like, "Okay, what am I seeing?
我會說，「好吧，我看到了什麼？
84:03
What are they not seeing?"
他們沒有看到什麼？
84:04
And then, what basically happened was we had a PM off-site where we were talking about strategy for the next year.
然後，基本上發生的事情是，我們有一個 PM 在場外討論明年的戰略。
84:10
And I, again, pitch this, and it got kind of momentum there, but not really.
我再一次提出這個建議，它在那裡得到了一些動力，但不是真的。
84:15
And then, I think the third time when it actually stuck was at the Maker Week hackathon.
然後，我認為它第三次真正卡住是在Maker Week駭客馬拉松上。
84:22
And this was kind of an insane experience for me, because I was actually hosting our hackathon.
這對我來說是一次瘋狂的經歷，因為我實際上是在主持我們的駭客馬拉松。
84:27
So I was kind of working with our VP of design, Noah, in order to spread the word about like, "Hey, everyone pitch your ideas."
因此，我和我們的設計副總裁諾亞（Noah）合作，以便宣傳“嘿，每個人都提出你的想法。
84:35
And to constantly, hackathons are interesting when they're virtual, right?
而且，駭客馬拉松在虛擬時很有趣，對吧？
84:38
Because you don't really know what people not in your office are doing, right?
因為你真的不知道不在辦公室的人在做什麼，對吧？
84:42
So you're constantly thinking about like, "Okay, how can you hype up the whole company, right?
所以你一直在想，「好吧，你怎麼能炒作整個公司，對吧？
84:46
How can you hype up the SF office with what people are building in New York?
你怎麼能用人們在紐約建造的東西來炒作舊金山的辦公室？
84:49
And how can you ensure that London stays included even though there's a limited time zone overlap," and things like that.
你怎麼能確保倫敦在有限的時區重疊中保持包括在內，“諸如此類的事情。
84:54
And so I was simultaneously thinking about, "Okay, how do we keep the momentum of this hackathon running?
所以我同時在想，「好吧，我們如何保持這次駭客馬拉松的勢頭？
85:00
And then, also, how do I push this idea bottoms up?"
然後，我如何推動這個想法自下而上？
85:05
And I think that something that's really important when you're making a pitch is to not be daunted by the scale of your pitch.
我認為，當你進行推銷時，真正重要的是不要被你的推銷規模所嚇倒。
85:12
So, for example, in this instance, the proposal was basically to introduce a new product.
因此，例如，在這種情況下，提案基本上是引入新產品。
85:18
And building a product in a week is for all intents and purposes kind of crazy, but this is I think where the scrappiness piece comes in.
在一周內構建一個產品，無論出於何種意圖和目的，都有點瘋狂，但我認為這就是廢品的用武之地。
85:32
You need to be willing to be very clear about where you're willing to take the hit on quality or believability and where you need to push in order to make your thing feel believable.
你需要願意非常清楚你願意在哪些方面對品質或可信度造成打擊，以及你需要在哪些方面推動，以使你的東西感覺可信。
85:45
So one example of something that we did was we literally, in order to make this new product feel more real, and this was maybe a two line change in code, was we swapped out the FigJam icon in our file browser to this new icon.
86:00
And adding a whole new entry point is a lot of work, and you can't do that.
添加一個全新的切入點需要做很多工作，而你不能這樣做。
86:04
But just swapping something and taking about what exists and changing the minor things in order to communicate what is different about your idea versus what exists today is something that you really want to lean into.
但是，只是交換一些東西，接受現有的東西，改變一些小的東西，以傳達你的想法與今天存在的東西的不同之處，這是你真正想要學習的東西。
86:15
And what basically happened was that at the end of the week, we had this demo day, and I was going between introducing each of the demos to doing the demo and did a little wardrobe change in between.
基本上發生的事情是，在週末，我們有這個演示日，我在介紹每個演示和做演示之間來回切換，中間做了一些衣櫥的改變。
86:27
And I think that what ended up being really great about presenting an idea like this in a company-wide forum, which I highly recommend, is that at that point, it becomes not just you evangelizing the idea, but your teammates and your colleagues and your peers evangelizing the idea.
我認為，在全公司論壇上提出這樣的想法，我強烈推薦，最終真正偉大的是，在這一點上，不僅僅是你在傳播這個想法，而是你的隊友、你的同事和你的同事在傳播這個想法。
86:42
And that sense of momentum carries a lot of weight, I think.
我認為，這種動力感很有分量。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
86:48
And this kind of leads into the next bullet point you shared of spreading the idea across the company.
這就引出了你分享的下一個要點，即在整個公司傳播這個想法。
86:54
It feels like this is part of it just getting it spread in a big powerful way initially.
感覺這是它的一部分，只是最初以一種強大的方式傳播它。
86:58
But what else have you learned about just getting this to spread across the company?
但是，在將其傳播到整個公司的過程中，您還學到了什麼？
87:01
It gets kind of like this flame spreading throughout the organization.
這有點像這種火焰在整個組織中蔓延。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
87:05
I think something that's very unique about Figma as compared to other companies is we have a multi-month plus long staging or dogfooding process.
我認為與其他公司相比，Figma 非常獨特的一點是，我們有一個長達數月的分期或狗糧過程。
87:15
And so something that was really interesting to me was... One of the first projects that I worked on at the company was we were building sections inside of FigJam.
所以對我來說真正有趣的事情是......我在公司工作的第一個專案是我們在 FigJam 內部構建部分。
87:25
And we had a problem.
我們遇到了一個問題。
87:27
We built it. 我們建造了它。
87:29
We put something on staging, and I was kind of like, "Okay, cool, it's been on staging a week, now we can launch, right?"
我們在舞臺上放了一些東西，我有點像，「好吧，很酷，它已經上演了一個星期，現在我們可以啟動了，對吧？
87:36
And I was greeted with like, "No, we can't launch."
我被問到，“不，我們不能發射。
87:41
And I think that leaning into that willingness to being vulnerable about your product and this acknowledgement that feedback is a gift, and that bits and pieces of feedback from across the company will help your product mature and get to a place where it's ready to go out the door is really important.
而且我認為，傾向於對你的產品保持脆弱的意願，並承認反饋是一種禮物，來自整個公司的點點滴滴的反饋將説明你的產品成熟並達到一個準備好推出的地方，這真的很重要。
88:00
And what's really interesting is this helps the team who's working on the product, because you're getting feedback, and that's the most direct benefit of putting something on staging early.
真正有趣的是，這有助於開發產品的團隊，因為你會得到反饋，這是儘早將某些東西放在舞臺上最直接的好處。
88:11
But the other benefit about putting something on staging early is that it makes people invested in your product.
但是，儘早將某些東西放在舞臺上的另一個好處是，它會讓人們投資於您的產品。
88:17
So if you think about why are betas so valuable and why are alphas so valuable, it's because when someone gives you feedback, and then the team in charge implements that change, you see that and you're like, "I shaped that part of the product."
88:31
Right? 右？
88:32
And to the extent that you can get as many people in the company feeling like they shaped X, Y, Z parts of the product, I think that's really powerful, because, then, you kind of are ensuring that there's this constant feedback loop, and there's this constant investment in thinking about how can we collectively drive towards success, because at the end of the day, product development is a team sport, right?
在某種程度上，你可以讓公司里盡可能多的人覺得他們塑造了產品的 X、Y、Z 部分，我認為這真的很強大，因為，然後，你要確保有這種持續的反饋迴圈，並且有這種持續的投資來思考我們如何共同推動成功， 因為歸根結底，產品開發是一項團隊運動，對吧？
89:00
It takes everyone to make something successful.
每個人都需要成功。
89:02
And so I just think about putting things early on staging and getting people involved in the cycle as opening up the doors to the product development process, and hopefully, that just elevates the quality of the product.
因此，我只是考慮儘早安排工作，讓人們參與到這個週期中，為產品開發過程打開大門，希望這能提高產品的品質。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
89:15
Is there anything else you want to touch on or share or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
在我們進入非常激動人心的閃電回合之前，您還有什麼想觸及或分享或留給聽眾的嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
89:22
If you have an insight that only you have, I think on one hand, you can kind of believe, "Oh, other people aren't thinking similar to me.
如果你有一個只有你自己擁有的洞察力，我想一方面，你可以相信，“哦，其他人的想法和我不一樣。
89:30
Therefore, maybe, I'm wrong," but I would actually flip that, because I think if you have an insight that other people are not seeing, it is even more on you to get people onto the same page.
因此，也許，我錯了，「但我實際上會翻轉這一點，因為我認為如果你有一個其他人沒有看到的洞察力，那麼你更應該讓人們站在同一起跑線上。
89:43
And so to the extent that you can shout from the rooftops about all the insights that you're learning, I think that, in and of itself, creates a more entrepreneurial culture within the company, because chances are other people will see you doing that.
因此，在某種程度上，你可以在屋頂上大聲疾呼你正在學習的所有見解，我認為這本身就在公司內部創造了一種更具創業精神的文化，因為其他人很可能會看到你這樣做。
89:55
They'll be inspired to contribute in the same way as well.
他們也會受到啟發，以同樣的方式做出貢獻。
89:58
I think the last thing that I would say is, which is maybe an aspect that we did not touch on, is that understanding motivations is, in my opinion, one of the keys to running a team successfully and driving an idea forward.
我想我要說的最後一件事是，這可能是我們沒有觸及的一個方面，在我看來，理解動機是成功運營團隊和推動想法前進的關鍵之一。
90:17
So, for example, if you think about the composition of a product team, you have engineers, you have designers, you have researchers, data scientists, et cetera, and different people want to be involved in the kind of product visioning phase to a different extent.
所以，舉個例子，如果你考慮一個產品團隊的組成，你有工程師，你有設計師，你有研究人員，數據科學家等等，不同的人希望在不同程度上參與到產品願景階段。
90:33
There's some people who do want a solution handed to them, because for them, the most exciting part of the process is to find the technical solution in the code.
有些人確實希望將解決方案交給他們，因為他們來說，這個過程中最令人興奮的部分是在代碼中找到技術解決方案。
90:43
On the other hand, there are other people who find it really hard to feel passionately about a thing that they have not contributed to.
另一方面，還有一些人發現很難對他們沒有貢獻的事情充滿熱情。
90:49
And so I think to the extent that you can understand these motivations of your team, of your leadership, of your peers, and constantly ensure that you are catering to the individual, as opposed to the average, that is what, in my opinion, leads to one of the highest-functioning teams.
因此，我認為，在某種程度上，你可以理解你的團隊、你的領導、你的同事的這些動機，並不斷確保你迎合個人，而不是平均水準，在我看來，這就是導致運作最好的團隊之一的原因。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
91:11
Such a cool point. 這麼酷的一點。
91:12
It comes back to the personality tests that you spoke of earlier.
這又回到了你之前談到的性格測試。
91:15
Is that the best way to figure this out?
這是解決這個問題的最好方法嗎？
91:16
Is it more just watch people and try to guess at what they're most excited about [inaudible 01:31:21]-
更多的只是觀察人們並嘗試猜測他們最興奮的是什麼 [聽不清 01：31：21]-
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
91:21
Oh, I think you have to directly ask them.
哦，我想你必須直接問他們。
91:22
So anytime someone joins my team, especially on the engineering side, because I think this is where there's the greatest variance, I will literally ask, " How much do you like being involved in product decisions?"
因此，每當有人加入我的團隊時，尤其是在工程方面，因為我認為這是差異最大的地方，我都會問：“你有多喜歡參與產品決策？
91:34
And to the extent that you can take decisions in the open, that is excellent.
在某種程度上，你可以公開做出決定，這是非常好的。
91:43
And even if the decision is something along the lines of like, "Okay, we have four options," and you can go in with a leading point of view, but giving everyone the opportunity to voice their perspective and push back, if they want to, I think that that's very powerful.
即使這個決定是這樣的，「好吧，我們有四個選擇」，你可以帶著一個領先的觀點，但讓每個人都有機會表達他們的觀點，如果他們願意的話，我認為這是非常強大的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
92:03
Such a good tip. 這麼好的提示。
92:04
I feel like I could ask you questions for at least two more hours, but we're not going to do that.
我覺得我可以再問你至少兩個小時的問題，但我們不會那樣做。
92:08
Maybe, we'll have round two some day.
也許，有一天我們會有第二輪。
92:11
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我們進入了非常激動人心的閃電回合。
92:13
Are you ready? 準備好了嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
92:14
I am ready. 我準備好了。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
92:16
Mihika, first question, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
92:21
Yeah, I'll start by saying that I am immediately skeptical of anyone who has not read Harry Potter.
是的，我首先要說的是，我立即對任何沒有讀過哈利波特的人持懷疑態度。
92:26
So, if you're one of those people, go read Harry Potter.
所以，如果你是這些人中的一員，那就去讀哈利波特吧。
92:31
Maybe, it contributes to creativity.
也許，它有助於創造力。
92:33
I don't know. 我不知道。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
92:35
Now, we're talking about every book in the series, or at least the one book?
現在，我們談論的是該系列中的每本書，或者至少是一本書？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
92:38
No, no. 不不。
92:39
You have to read the entire series, and you have to read it in order.
你必須閱讀整個系列，而且你必須按順序閱讀。
92:41
It's actually funny, when I was in kindergarten, my mom bought the fifth book, and then the person at the bookstore was like, "No, no."
其實很有趣，在我上幼兒園的時候，我媽媽買了第五本書，然後書店裡的人說，“不，不。
92:50
Like, "No, no." 比如，“不，不。
92:51
We were like, "Okay, got it."
我們想，“好吧，明白了。
92:54
And then, the others that I would recommend are from a fiction perspective.
然後，我推薦的其他作品都是從小說的角度出發的。
92:59
I think Pachinko by Min Jin Lee is incredibly beautiful and powerful.
我認為 Min Jin Lee 的彈珠機非常美麗和強大。
93:04
It's like a multi-generational Korean saga.
這就像一個多代人的韓國傳奇。
93:07
I think I'm personally just motivated and moved by large scale things.
我想我個人只是被大規模的事情所激勵和感動。
93:12
So to see a single story traverse so many generations was very fascinating to me.
因此，看到一個故事跨越了這麼多代人，對我來說非常著迷。
93:17
And then, from a more businessy book perspective, which is maybe more what you're getting at, I think that I honestly pseudo steer clear of how-to books, but one that has had a particularly large impact on me is Creativity Inc.
然後，從更商業化的書的角度來看，也許你更願意，我認為老實說，我偽避開了操作方法書籍，但對我影響特別大的是 Creativity Inc。
93:32
by Ed Catmull. 埃德·卡特莫爾 （Ed Catmull） 著。
93:33
And this is about the founding story and scaling of Pixar.
這是關於皮克斯的創始故事和規模。
93:37
And what was so interesting to me about this book was it basically talks about how you create a process around cultivating creativity.
這本書的有趣之處在於，它基本上談到了你如何創造一個培養創造力的過程。
93:44
And it's interesting, because creativity is so unencumbered and process is the opposite, so that's very fascinating.
這很有趣，因為創造力是如此不受阻礙，而過程恰恰相反，所以這非常令人著迷。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
93:50
My favorite lesson from that book is that it sticks with me as the ugly baby metaphor, which feels like so tied to the way you think and operate.
我從那本書中最喜歡的一課是，它一直困擾著我，因為它是醜陋的嬰兒隱喻，感覺與你的思維和操作方式息息相關。
93:58
And I won't get into it.
我不會進入它。
94:00
By the way, have you read The Overstory?
順便問一下，你讀過 The Overstory 嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
94:01
I have not. 我沒有。
94:01
I'll add that to my list.
我會把它添加到我的清單中。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
94:04
I feel like, based on the way you described Pachinko, this is a book for you.
我覺得，根據你描述柏青哥的方式，這是一本適合你的書。
94:09
It's a multi-generational family story that I did not actually finish.
這是一個多代人的家庭故事，我實際上沒有完成。
94:14
It's very long, but I feel like you were there.
它很長，但我覺得你在那裡。
Mihika Kapoor
94:16
Okay. 好。
Lenny Rachitsky
94:16
There you go.
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
94:16
I'll go order it. 我去訂購。
Lenny Rachitsky
94:19
Okay. 好。
94:20
Favorite recent movie or TV show?
最喜愛的 recent movie or television show？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
94:22
Favorite recent TV show would definitely be Severance.
最喜歡的最近電視節目肯定是遣散費。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
94:28
Movie, or shall we move on?
電影，還是我們繼續前進？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
94:29
Oh, movie, I recently watched Dune 2 and Dune 1 in the span of a week.
哦，電影，我最近在一周內看了《沙丘 2》和《沙丘 1》。
94:32
It was really fun. 這真的很有趣。
94:34
I watched Dune 2, because someone asked me to co-host a premiere of Dune 2 with them, and I was like, "Okay, sounds good, sounds cool, but I need to watch Dune 1."
我看了《沙丘2》，因為有人讓我和他們一起主持《沙丘2》的首映式，我說，“好吧，聽起來不錯，聽起來很酷，但我需要看《沙丘1》。
Lenny Rachitsky
94:44
Good choice. 不錯的選擇。
94:45
I just watched Dune 2.
我剛剛看了《沙丘2》。
94:46
I don't know if a more epic movie can be made.
94:48
I was just gripped. 我只是被抓住了。
Mihika Kapoor
94:50
The visuals were stunning.
視覺效果令人驚歎。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
94:52
Like not breathing. 就像沒有呼吸一樣。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
94:52
Yeah. 是的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
94:53
It's out of control. 它失控了。
94:53
I watched it IMAX. 我看了IMAX。
94:54
I think that was a good call, but it was stressful.
我認為這是一個很好的電話，但壓力很大。
94:59
Favorite interview question they like to ask folks when you're hiring.
當你招聘時，他們喜歡問人們最喜歡的面試問題。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
95:02
I like to ask people what motivates them, but also, people often ask me, what is my favorite hot seat question, which I think is kind of similar.
我喜歡問人們是什麼激勵了他們，但人們也經常問我，我最喜歡的熱門座位問題是什麼，我認為這有點相似。
95:09
And my answer to that is that it's highly dependent on the person, and there's no go-to hot seat question.
我對此的回答是，它高度依賴於人，並且沒有熱門座位問題。
95:16
And I almost feel the same way about interview questions.
我對面試問題幾乎也有同樣的感覺。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
95:19
Favorite product you recently discovered that you love?
您最近發現自己喜歡的最喜歡的產品？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
95:23
Speaking about hype, I am kind of obsessed with the browser company, Arc onboarding flow, specifically the onboarding flow.
說到炒作，我有點癡迷於瀏覽器公司 Arc 的入職流程，特別是入職流程。
95:31
I think that they do such a good job of amping you up for not only the larger change that they're trying to make in terms of personal operating system, but of showing you to what extent their team thinks about the details of the product, where a lot of other products might cut corners.
我認為他們做得很好，不僅為他們試圖在個人操作系統方面做出的更大改變而增強了你，而且向你展示了他們的團隊在多大程度上考慮了產品的細節，而許多其他產品可能會偷工減料。
95:55
And I think their ability to communicate the ethos of their product through that is really powerful.
我認為他們通過這一點傳達產品精神的能力非常強大。
95:59
So that's one. 所以這是其一。
96:01
And then I think the second is in the AI space.
然後我認為第二個是在人工智慧領域。
96:03
I'm really excited by Pika, which is video generation, video editing software.
我對 Pika 感到非常興奮，它是一種視頻生成、視頻編輯軟體。
96:08
I think that, in my mind, one of the biggest shortcomings of AI, the way that a lot of people are building it today is that it's optimized for the demo or optimized for the tweet, right?
我認為，在我看來，人工智慧最大的缺點之一，今天很多人構建它的方式是它針對演示進行了優化或針對推文進行了優化，對吧？
96:21
And it's basically this situation where I think about it as, in my mind, one of the biggest goals of AI right now is the black boxification of AI, because it's not really useful to enter a prompt and get an output that you can't interact with, because then it's like, if something's a little bit off, what are you going to do?
基本上就是這種情況，我認為，在我看來，人工智慧現在最大的目標之一就是人工智慧的黑匣子化，因為輸入提示並獲得你無法交互的輸出並沒有真正的用處，因為這樣一來，如果有什麼東西有點不對勁， 你打算做什麼？
96:41
You're kind of stuck. 你有點卡住了。
96:42
But I think Pika is doing a really great job of not just investing in the foundational video models, but also giving you the ability to manipulate the output.
但我認為 Pika 做得非常出色，不僅投資了基礎視頻模型，還為您提供了操縱輸出的能力。
96:50
And so I'm excited about that approach, and I hope that more companies take you from that.
因此，我對這種方法感到興奮，我希望更多的公司能從中吸取教訓。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
96:55
Awesome, good choices on Arc.
太棒了，Arc 上的好選擇。
96:57
Whenever anyone ask me for a great onboarding follow, that's the one I point people to.
每當有人問我一個偉大的入職關注時，我都會向人們指出這一點。
97:01
And we had Josh Miller on the podcast in the past, and I was proud that he pinned our interview as top of his Twitter feed for a year, which made me really happy.
我們過去在播客上有喬什·米勒（Josh Miller），我很自豪他把我們的採訪固定在他的推特上一年，這讓我非常高興。
97:12
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends or family that you find useful in life or in work?
你有沒有最喜歡的人生座右銘，你經常回來或與朋友或家人分享，你認為在生活或工作中有用？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
97:19
Yeah, "Life is a game of expectations."
是的，“生活是一場期望的遊戲。
97:22
And so speaking of books and movies and things like that, I will never ever watch a movie trailer or read the back cover of a book, because I think it means that you're going into it with too many expectations.
所以說到書籍、電影和類似的東西，我永遠不會看電影預告片或讀一本書的封底，因為我認為這意味著你帶著太多的期望進入它。
97:34
It either tells you all the punchlines, or it tells you the foundational backstory or something like that.
它要麼告訴你所有的妙語，要麼告訴你基本的背景故事或類似的東西。
97:39
And I think that, to the extent, that you go in either with no expectations or low expectations, that's the key to enjoying life.
我認為，在某種程度上，你要麼沒有期望，要麼期望值很低，這就是享受生活的關鍵。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
97:48
I love that tip. 我喜歡這個提示。
97:48
I recently learned the same piece of advice from Kevin Kelly's recent book where it's just a book of little tidbits of advice that he's learned over his life, and one of them is like never watch the trailer if you're going to watch the movie, and I've been doing that ever since.
我最近從凱文·凱利（Kevin Kelly）最近的一本書中學到了同樣的建議，這本書只是一本他一生中學到的小花絮建議的書，其中之一就是如果你要看電影，就永遠不要看預告片，從那以後我就一直在這樣做。
98:00
I think that's an awesome piece of advice.
我認為這是一個很棒的建議。
98:02
Final question. 最後一個問題。
98:03
We talked about the Figgy's.
我們談到了 Figgy's。
98:04
You mentioned there's an award for PM least likely to write a PRD.
你提到有一個獎項是給最不可能寫珠三角的總理的。
98:08
Was that you won the award for chance?
那是你獲得機會獎嗎？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
98:10
I think it was me and Sho tied.
我想是我和 Sho 打成平手。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
98:15
Okay, great. 好的，太好了。
98:15
I guessed correctly. 我猜對了。
98:16
Amazing. 了不起。
98:17
Mihika, you're... Everything, I hope you'd be on this podcast, I feel like, we could have talked for, I keep saying this, but at least two more hours maybe, we'll have a follow-up.
美彥，你是......一切，我希望你能在這個播客上，我覺得，我們本來可以談談的，我一直這麼說，但至少再過兩個小時，我們會有後續。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
98:25
I'd love that. 我會喜歡的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
98:25
Thank you so much for being here and for making time.
非常感謝您來到這裡並抽出時間。
98:28
Two final questions. 最後兩個問題。
98:28
Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and follow up on anything?
如果人們想聯繫並跟進任何事情，他們可以在哪裡找到您？
98:31
And how can listeners be useful to you?
聽眾對你有什麼用？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
98:33
Yeah, you can find me on Twitter.
是的，你可以在Twitter上找到我。
98:35
I'm @mihikapoor. 我@mihikapoor。
98:37
It's kind of my first name and last name smushed together.
這有點像我的名字和姓氏混在一起。
98:39
And in terms of how users can be useful to me, so one is come to Config, we will be announcing both this new product, but also so many cool things that the company is working on.
就使用者如何對我有用而言，Config 來了，我們將宣佈這款新產品，以及公司正在開發的許多很酷的東西。
98:53
A lot of very exciting AI launches and more.
許多非常激動人心的 AI 發佈等等。
98:57
And I think that having the community come together is a very special moment.
我認為讓社區走到一起是一個非常特別的時刻。
99:00
So hope to see you there.
99:03
Cough, cough, try the new product when it comes out.
咳咳，咳咳，新產品出來時試試。
99:06
And I don't know, I'm always on the lookout for cool new products.
我不知道，我一直在尋找很酷的新產品。
99:09
I like to be someone who tries things out early, so to the extent that you see things, send them my way.
我喜歡做一個儘早嘗試的人，所以只要你看到東西，就把它們發給我。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
99:14
There's going to be so many people anticipating this new product.
將會有很多人期待這款新產品。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
99:17
Oh, no, yeah. 哦，不，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
99:17
There's going to be like-
會像——
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
99:17
We should- 我們應該——
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
99:17
... holy moly. ...神聖的莫利。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
99:19
Please have low expectations.
請抱有較低的期望。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
99:22
Okay. 好。
99:22
And the way we'll know is are you pitching and presenting it, or how do we know this is going to be your product once we see it?
我們知道如何知道你是在推銷和展示它，或者一旦我們看到它，我們怎麼知道這將是你的產品？
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
99:28
It'll probably be in the opening keynote, which is done by Dylan, but I'll probably give a Config talk on it as well.
它可能會出現在由 Dylan 完成的開場主題演講中，但我可能也會就此進行 Config 演講。
99:37
So that's how you will know, and I'll probably tweet about it.
所以這就是你所知道的，我可能會在推特上談論它。
99:40
What I was actually going to do is to release the original vision deck when it launches, so you can look out for that.
我實際上要做的是在原始願景卡組發佈時發佈它，這樣你就可以注意這一點。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
99:50
We'll be watching. 我們拭目以待。
99:51
I will be at Config.
我將在 Config。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
99:52
Can't wait to see you there.
迫不及待地想在那裡見到你。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
99:54
Potentially on stage. 可能在舞臺上。
99:54
Can't reveal yet what's happening exactly, but I think it's going to be awesome.
目前還不能透露到底發生了什麼，但我認為這將是很棒的。
99:58
Anyway, Mihika, thank you again so much for being here.
不管怎樣，Mihika，再次感謝你來到這裡。
Mihika Kapoor 米希卡·卡普爾
100:02
Thank you for having me, Lenny.
謝謝你邀請我，萊尼。
100:03
This was such a fun conversation.
這是一次非常有趣的談話。
100:04
It was such an honor and a privilege to be on the podcast.
能參加播客是一種榮幸和榮幸。
100:09
So, really, thank you so much for having me.
所以，真的，非常感謝你邀請我。
Lenny Rachitsky 萊尼·拉奇茨基
100:11
The honor was mine. 榮譽是我的。
100:12
Bye, everyone.
100:16
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感謝您的聆聽。
100:17
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您覺得這很有價值，您可以在 Apple 播客、Spotify 或您最喜歡的播客應用程式上訂閱該節目。
100:24
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，請考慮給我們評分或留下評論，因為這確實有助於其他聽眾找到播客。
100:30
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有過去的劇集或瞭解有關該節目的更多資訊。
100:35
See you in the next episode.
下一集見。

Brought to you by: 由以下人員提供：

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• Lenny 的人才團隊——聘請最優秀的產品人員。尋找最佳產品演出
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• Vanta—自動實現合規性。簡化安全性

—

Mihika Kapoor is a design-engineer-PM hybrid at Figma, where she was an early PM on FigJam and is now spearheading development on a new product at the company that’s coming out this June. She’s known as the go-to person at Figma for leading new 0-to-1 products, and, as you’ll hear in our conversation, beloved by everyone she works with. Her background includes founding Design Nation, a national nonprofit focused on democratizing design education for undergraduates; spearheading product launches at Meta; and community building within the NYC AI startup scene. In our conversation, we discuss:
Mihika Kapoor 是 Figma 的設計工程師兼 PM 混合體，她是 FigJam 的早期 PM，現在正在該公司帶頭開發將於今年 6 月推出的新產品。她被稱為 Figma 領導 0 對 1 新產品的首選人物，正如您將在我們的談話中聽到的那樣，她深受與她合作的每個人的喜愛。她的背景包括創立 Design Nation，這是一家專注於使本科生設計教育民主化的全國性非營利組織;在 Meta 率先推出產品;以及紐約市人工智慧創業場景中的社區建設。在我們的對話中，我們討論：

  • How to effectively take ideas from 0 to 1 at larger companies
    如何在大公司有效地將想法從 0 變為 1

  • How to craft a compelling vision
    如何打造令人信服的願景

  • The importance of vulnerability and feedback
    漏洞和反饋的重要性

  • The role of intuition and product sense in making decisions
    直覺和產品意識在決策中的作用

  • How to practically communicate your vision
    如何實際傳達您的願景

  • How to balance collaboration and strong opinions
    如何平衡協作和強烈的意見

  • Advice for building a strong team culture
    建立強大團隊文化的建議

  • Pivoting with grace and enthusiasm
    優雅而熱情地旋轉

  • The current AI revolution and its impact on PM
    當前的人工智慧革命及其對PM的影響

Some takeaways: 一些要點：

  1. Putting ideas out there, even if they are wrong, can lead to better solutions and more productive discussions. It’s not just about having a great idea or building a prototype; it’s about actively engaging and rallying others around that idea to create momentum and excitement. Whether it’s pitching ideas at events like hackathons or simply asking colleagues for assistance, the key is to not let perceived limitations hold you back from pursuing your vision.
    把想法放在那裡，即使它們是錯誤的，也可以帶來更好的解決方案和更有成效的討論。這不僅僅是有一個好主意或構建一個原型;這是關於圍繞這個想法積极參與和團結其他人，以創造動力和興奮。無論是在駭客馬拉松等活動中提出想法，還是只是向同事尋求幫助，關鍵是不要讓感知到的局限性阻礙你追求自己的願景。

  2. Mihika likens the role of a 0-to-1 team within a large company to that of Hestia in Greek mythology, who is the “keeper of the hearth.” It is Hestia’s job to always keep the hearth burning, even while other gods go out on separate quests. This means always keeping the 0-to-1 project alive and helping it spread to others, mostly through setting vision and building hype.
    Mihika 將大公司中0對1團隊的角色比作希臘神話中的赫斯提亞，赫斯提亞是“壁爐的守護者”。赫斯提亞的工作是始終保持爐膛燃燒，即使其他神靈外出執行不同的任務。這意味著始終保持 0 對 1 專案的活力並説明它傳播給其他人，主要是通過設定願景和建立炒作。

  3. To set the vision for a new idea, ask: “If I and my team do our job correctly, what does the world look like?” Then convey the pain point, solution, and proof in a format that can “show, not tell” stakeholders what you’re doing. For example, use prototypes, Figma mock-ups, and customer testimonials.
    要為一個新想法設定願景，請問：“如果我和我的團隊正確地完成了我們的工作，世界會是什麼樣子？然後，以一種可以“展示而不是告訴”利益相關者您在做什麼的格式傳達痛點、解決方案和證明。例如，使用原型、Figma 模型和客戶推薦。

  4. Internal hackathons are a great way to encourage innovation. Figma has a Maker Week where the entire company—including technical and non-technical employees—goes on pause for a week to work on ambitious ideas. Maker Week and other internal hackathons have led to many successful Figma products, including Jambot and Figma’s entire widget platform.
    內部駭客馬拉松是鼓勵創新的好方法。Figma 有一個創客周，整個公司（包括技術和非技術員工）都會暫停一周，以制定雄心勃勃的想法。Maker Week 和其他內部駭客馬拉松催生了許多成功的 Figma 產品，包括 Jambot 和 Figma 的整個小部件平臺。

  5. Figma implements a fun “hot seat” tradition, where each person takes turns being in the hot seat for a set amount of time. During their turn, the person can be asked anything by the other members of the group. By understanding what motivates each team member and building strong relationships, collaboration becomes more effective, leading to a more enjoyable work environment and ultimately better outcomes for the product or project. The key is to create a comfortable and friendly atmosphere where everyone feels open to sharing.
    Figma實施了一個有趣的“熱座”傳統，每個人都輪流坐在熱座上一段時間。在輪到他們時，小組的其他成員可以向該人提出任何要求。通過瞭解每個團隊成員的動機並建立牢固的關係，協作變得更加有效，從而帶來更愉快的工作環境，並最終為產品或項目帶來更好的結果。關鍵是要創造一個舒適友好的氛圍，讓每個人都願意分享。

  6. Make time for fun! “Play” is one of Figma’s core values, and Mihika makes a concerted effort to have enjoyable team gatherings. When people have fun together, they get to know each other more deeply and can feel more appreciated within the group. One tradition Mihika’s team uses is “The Figgies.” The team gathers to give out absurd awards for things like “most likely to go their entire career without writing a PRD.”
    騰出時間玩樂！“玩”是 Figma 的核心價值觀之一，Mihika 齊心協力舉辦愉快的團隊聚會。當人們在一起玩得開心時，他們會更深入地瞭解彼此，並在團隊中感到更加欣賞。Mihika的團隊使用的一個傳統是“The Figgies”。該團隊聚集在一起，為諸如“最有可能的整個職業生涯都不寫珠三角”之類的事情頒發荒謬的獎項。

Listen now on Apple, Spotify, Overcast, and YouTube.
立即在 Apple、Spotify、Overcast 和 YouTube 上收聽。

Where to find Mihika Kapoor:
在哪裡可以找到米希卡·卡普爾：

• X: https://twitter.com/mihikapoor
• X：https://twitter.com/mihikapoor

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mihikakapoor/
• LinkedIn：https://www.linkedin.com/in/mihikakapoor/

Where to find Lenny: 在哪裡可以找到 Lenny：

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• 時事通訊：https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• X：https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
• LinkedIn：https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

In this episode, we cover:
在本集中，我們將介紹：

(00:00) Mihika’s background
（ 00：00） 美彥的背景

(04:29) Core attributes of great product managers
（ 04：29） 優秀產品經理的核心特質

(07:34) Crafting a compelling vision
（ 07：34） 打造引人入勝的願景

(12:12) The vision behind FigJam 
（ 12：12） FigJam 背後的願景

(18:25) Delivering a vision without design or engineering skills
（ 18：25） 在沒有設計或工程技能的情況下實現願景

(21:52) Creating momentum
（ 21：52） 創造動力

(26:36) The importance of strong conviction
（ 26：36） 堅定信念的重要性

(27:45) Direct communication
（ 27：45） 直接溝通

(32:48) Building hype （ 32：48） 建築炒作

(42:20) Immersing yourself in user insights
（ 42：20） 讓自己沉浸在使用者洞察中

(47:16) Operationalizing user insights  
（ 47：16） 實施使用者見解

(50:33) Caring deeply about what you build
（ 50：33） 深切關心你所構建的東西

(54:01) Finding passion in your work
（ 54：01） 在工作中尋找激情

(57:00) Building a strong culture
（ 57：00） 建立強大的文化

(01:07:07) Pivoting with grace and enthusiasm
（ 01：07：07） 優雅而熱情地旋轉

(01:11:48) Design Nation
（ 01：11：48） 設計國度

(01:13:15) Mihika’s weaknesses
（ 01：13：15） 美彥的弱點

(01:16:07) Building new products at larger companies
（ 01：16：07） 在大公司開發新產品

(01:20:50) Coming up with a great idea
（ 01：20：50） 想出一個好主意

(01:22:49) The key to going from 0 to 1
（ 01：22：49） 從 0 到 1 的關鍵

(01:26:47) Spreading the idea across the company
（ 01：26：47） 在整個公司傳播這個想法

(01:29:15) Closing thoughts
（ 01：29：15） 結束語

(01:32:11) Lightning round
（ 01：32：11） 閃電

Referenced: 參考：

• Figma: https://www.figma.com/
• Figma：https://www.figma.com/

• Sho Kuwamoto on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shokuwamoto/
• 桑本翔（Sho Kuwamoto）在LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/shokuwamoto/

• The Medici Effect: What Elephants and Epidemics Can Teach Us About Innovation: https://www.amazon.com/Medici-Effect-Preface-Discussion-Guide/dp/1633692949
• 美第奇效應：大象和流行病可以教會我們什麼關於創新：https://www.amazon.com/Medici-Effect-Preface-Discussion-Guide/dp/1633692949

• FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/
• 無花果：https://www.figma.com/figjam/

• Cognition: https://www.cognition-labs.com/
• 認知：https://www.cognition-labs.com/

• Devin: https://www.cognition-labs.com/introducing-devin
• 德文：https://www.cognition-labs.com/introducing-devin

• David Hoang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhoang2/
• David Hoang 談 LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/dhoang2/

• Replit: https://replit.com/
• 回復：https://replit.com/

• The Making of Maker Week at Figma: https://www.figma.com/blog/the-making-of-maker-week/
• Figma 創客周的製作：https://www.figma.com/blog/the-making-of-maker-week/

• Yuhki Yamashita on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yuhki/
• Yuhki Yamashita發表在LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/yuhki/

• Jeff Bezos’ Simple Decision-Making Framework Will Give You Clarity, Conviction, and Courage: https://medium.com/illumination/jeff-bezos-simple-decision-making-framework-will-give-you-clarity-conviction-and-courage-adf8d0183625
• 傑夫·貝佐斯（Jeff Bezos）的簡單決策框架將為您提供清晰、信念和勇氣：https://medium.com/illumination/jeff-bezos-simple-decision-making-framework-will-give-you-clarity-conviction-and-courage-adf8d0183625

• Alice Ching on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aliceching/
• Alice Ching 發表在《LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/aliceching/

• Karl Jiang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karl-jiang-4a07424/
• 卡爾·江 談LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/karl-jiang-4a07424/

• Kris Rasmussen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristopherrasmussen/
• 克裡斯·拉斯穆森（Kris Rasmussen）談LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/kristopherrasmussen/

• Config: https://config.figma.com/
• 配置：https://config.figma.com/

• Dev Mode: https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/
• 開發模式：https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/

• Asana: https://asana.com/
• 體式：https://asana.com/

• Julie Zhuo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/
• Julie Zhuo 發表在《LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/

• StrengthsFinder test: https://www.gyfted.me/personality-quiz/strengthsfinder-test-free
• StrengthsFinder 測試：https://www.gyfted.me/personality-quiz/strengthsfinder-test-free

• Dylan Field on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/
• 迪倫·菲爾德 （Dylan Field） LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/

• Vishal Shah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vishalnshah/
• 維沙爾·沙阿 （Vishal Shah） 談 LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/vishalnshah/

• Design Disruptors: https://www.invisionapp.com/films/design-disruptors
• 設計顛覆者：https://www.invisionapp.com/films/design-disruptors

• Daniel Burka on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dburka/
• 丹尼爾·布爾卡 （Daniel Burka） 談 LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/dburka/

• Jamie Myrold on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiemyrold/
• 傑米·邁羅爾德 （Jamie Myrold） 發表在《LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/jamiemyrold/

• Design Nation: https://dn.businesstoday.org/
• 設計之國：https://dn.businesstoday.org/

• Stuart Weitzman on X: https://twitter.com/StuartWeitzman
• 斯圖爾特·韋茨曼（Stuart Weitzman）談X：HTTPs：//twitter.com/StuartWeitzman

• Joe Gebbia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jgebbia/
• 喬·格比亞（Joe Gebbia）談LinkedIn：https：//www.linkedin.com/in/jgebbia/

• Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/
• 建立長期而有意義的職業生涯 |Nikhyl Singhal（Meta、Google）：https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/

• Jambot: https://www.figma.com/community/widget/1274481464484630971/jambot
• Jambot：https://www.figma.com/community/widget/1274481464484630971/jambot

• Hestia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hestia
• 赫斯提亞：https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hestia

• Harry Potter series: https://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Paperback-Box-Books/dp/0545162076
• 哈利波特系列：https://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Paperback-Box-Books/dp/0545162076

• Pachinko: https://www.amazon.com/Pachinko-National-Book-Award-Finalist/dp/1455563927/
• 彈珠機：https://www.amazon.com/Pachinko-National-Book-Award-Finalist/dp/1455563927/

• Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Expanded-Overcoming-Inspiration/dp/0593594649
• Creativity， Inc.：克服阻礙真正靈感的看不見的力量：https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Expanded-Overcoming-Inspiration/dp/0593594649

• The Overstory: https://www.amazon.com/Overstory-Novel-Richard-Powers/dp/039335668X
• The Overstory：https://www.amazon.com/Overstory-Novel-Richard-Powers/dp/039335668X

• Severance on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/severance/umc.cmc.1srk2goyh2q2zdxcx605w8vtx
• AppleTV+ 上的遣散費：https://tv.apple.com/us/show/severance/umc.cmc.1srk2goyh2q2zdxcx605w8vtx

• Dune on Max: https://www.max.com/movies/dune/e7dc7b3a-a494-4ef1-8107-f4308aa6bbf7
• 最大沙丘：https://www.max.com/movies/dune/e7dc7b3a-a494-4ef1-8107-f4308aa6bbf7

• Dune: Part 2: https://www.dunemovie.com/
• 沙丘：第 2 部分：https://www.dunemovie.com/

• Arc browser: https://arc.net/
• Arc 瀏覽器：https://arc.net/

• Pika: https://pika.art/home
• 鼠兔：https://pika.art/home

• The power of recognition: Why you should celebrate your employees | Josh Miller: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/the-power-of-recognition-why-you-should-celebrate-your-employees-josh-miller/
• 認可的力量：為什麼要慶祝你的員工 |喬什·米勒：https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/the-power-of-recognition-why-you-should-celebrate-your-employees-josh-miller/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
https://penname.co/ 生產和銷售。有關贊助播客的查詢，請發送電子郵件 podcast@lennyrachitsky.com。

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Lenny可能是所討論公司的投資者。

50 Likes 50 人點讚
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5 Restacks 5 重新堆疊
1 Comment 1評論
Colin Brown
Focused (in and on) Finland!
Apr 22Liked by Lenny Rachitsky

Fantastic! So important to cover every voice from the product creation process.
匪夷所思！覆蓋產品創建過程中的每一個聲音非常重要。

Really enjoyed this deep dive with Mihika and her conviction shone through. So many amazing touches to this podcast. Definitely worth a second listen!

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Lenny 的播客：產品 |成長 |生涯
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採訪世界一流的產品領導者和增長專家，以發現具體、可操作和戰術性的建議，以説明您構建、發佈和發展自己的產品。
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