Sam Altman: Good afternoon. Today's guest speaker is Emmett Shear. Emmett is the CEO of Twitch, which was acquired by Amazon, where he now works. Emmett is going to talk about how to do great user interviews; this is the talking to users part of "How to Start a Start Up." It should be really useful. Thank you very much for coming!
Sam Altman：下午好。今天的演讲嘉宾是 Emmett Shear。埃米特是 Twitch 的首席执行官，Twitch 被亚马逊收购，他现在在亚马逊工作。埃米特将讲述如何进行出色的用户访谈；这是 "如何创办一家新公司 "中与用户交谈的部分。这应该非常有用。非常感谢各位的到来！

Emmett Shear: Thanks Sam. I started my first startup with Justin Kan right out of college.
埃米特-谢尔谢谢萨姆。我大学毕业后就和 Justin Kan 一起创办了我的第一家初创公司。 We started a company called Kiko Calendar. It didn't go so well. Well, it went alright. We built it, we sold it on eBay.
我们创办了一家名为 "奇可日历 "的公司。但并不顺利嗯，还算顺利我们建了公司 在eBay上卖掉了 We built it, we sold it on eBay. That's not necessarily the end you want for your start up.
这不一定是你想要的创业结局。

It was a good time. We learned a lot. We learned a lot about programming. We didn't know anything about calendars. Neither one of us were users of calendars.
这是一段美好的时光。我们学到了很多。我们学到了很多编程知识。我们对日历一无所知。我们都不是日历的使用者。 Nor did we, during the period of time we did the thing, go talk to anyone who actually did use a calendar. That was not optimal. We got the build stuff part of the startup down. We did not get to the talk to users part.
在我们做这件事的那段时间里，我们也没有和任何真正使用日历的人交谈过。这样做并不理想。我们完成了启动过程中的构建工作。我们还没来得及与用户交流。

The second startup we started, we used a very common trick that lets you get away with not talking to users, which was that we were our own consumer. We had this idea for a television show, Justin.tv, a reality show of Justin Kan's life. We built technology and a website around the reality show we wanted to run. We were the users for that product. One way to cheat and get away with not talking to many other users is to build something that literally is just for you. Then you don't need to talk to anyone else because you know what you want and what you need. But that is limiting way to start a startup. Most startups are not built for the person who is using them. When you do that, every now and then you get really lucky and you are a representative of some huge class of people who all want the exact same thing you do. But very often, it just turns into a side project that doesn't go anywhere.
在我们创办的第二家初创公司中，我们使用了一种非常常见的伎俩，让你可以不与用户交谈，那就是我们是自己的消费者。我们有一个电视节目 Justin.tv 的想法，这是一个关于贾斯汀-简生活的真人秀节目。我们围绕这个真人秀节目建立了技术和网站。我们就是这个产品的用户。不与其他用户交谈的一种欺骗和逃避方式就是建立一个只属于你自己的东西。这样你就不需要与其他人交谈，因为你知道自己想要什么，需要什么。但是，这样的创业方式是有限的。大多数初创企业并不是为使用它们的人打造的。当你这样做的时候，偶尔你会非常幸运，你会成为一大群人的代表，他们都想要和你完全一样的东西。但很多时候，它只是变成了一个无疾而终的副业。

We kept working on Justin.tv for awhile and we actually achieved a good deal of success because it turned out that there were people out there who wanted to do the same thing we did, which was broadcast our lives on the internet. The issue with Justin.tv that kept us from achieving greatness is we hadn't figured out how to build towards anything beyond that initial TV show. We built a great product. If you wanted to run a live 24/7 Reality television show about your life, we had the website for you. We had exactly what you needed but if we wanted to go do more than that. We wanted to open it up to a broader spectrum of people and use cases, but we didn't have the insight to figure that out because we weren't that user.
我们在 Justin.tv 上做了一段时间，实际上取得了很大的成功，因为事实证明，有人也想做和我们一样的事情，那就是在互联网上播放我们的生活。Justin.tv让我们未能取得巨大成功的问题在于，我们还没有想好如何在最初的电视节目之外做得更好。我们打造了一个伟大的产品。如果你想运营一个关于你生活的全天候真人秀节目，我们的网站就能满足你。我们拥有你所需要的一切，但如果我们想做得更多。我们想把它开放给更广泛的人群和用例，但我们并没有洞察力，因为我们不是那样的用户。

So we decided to pivot Justin.tv. We decided we needed to go in a new direction. We thought we built a lot of valuable technology but we hadn't identified a use case that would let it get really big. There were two directions that seemed promising. One was mobile and one was gaming. I lead the gaming initiative inside of the company. What we did with gaming that was very, very different from what we'd ever done before was we actually went and talked to users. Because while I loved watching gaming videos, I was very aware that neither I nor anyone else in the company knew anything about broadcasting video games. I was amped about the content. I thought that there was market there. That was the insight that wasn't common at the time, which was how much fun it was to watch video games.
因此，我们决定重新定位 Justin.tv。我们决定要朝着新的方向发展。我们认为我们构建了很多有价值的技术，但我们还没有找到一个能让它真正发展壮大的用例。有两个方向似乎很有前途。一个是移动，一个是游戏。我在公司内部领导游戏计划。我们在游戏方面所做的与以往非常不同，那就是我们真正去与用户交谈。因为虽然我喜欢看游戏视频，但我很清楚，无论是我还是公司里的其他人，对视频游戏的播放都一无所知。我对内容很感兴趣。我认为那里有市场。这就是当时不常见的洞察力，即观看视频游戏有多么有趣。

Quick show of hands, how many people know about watching video games on the internet here? If you don't know about watching video games internet you should go read about it, because it's important context for the stuff I am going to talk about. The main point is I thought it was awesome, but I didn't know anything about the important side of it, which is actually acquiring the content of the startup broadcasting. We ran a very large number of user interviews. We talked to a lot of people and that data formed the core of all the decision making for the next three years of product features on Twitch. We continued to talk to users and in fact built an entire part of the company whose job it is to talk to our users.
举手示意一下，有多少人知道在互联网上观看视频游戏？如果你不知道在互联网上看视频游戏，那你应该去读一读，因为这对我接下来要讲的内容很重要。重点是，我觉得它很棒，但我对它重要的一面一无所知，那就是真正获取创业广播的内容。我们进行了大量的用户访谈。我们与很多人进行了交谈，这些数据构成了 Twitch 未来三年产品功能决策的核心。我们继续与用户交谈，事实上，我们在公司内部设立了一个专门负责与用户交谈的部门。 That is a whole division we didn't even have at Justin.tv. We had no one at the company whose job it was to talk to our most important users.
在 Justin.tv，我们甚至没有这样一个部门。我们公司没有人负责与我们最重要的用户沟通。

I want to give you guys a little bit of insight into what it meant to talk to users. We determined that the broadcasters were the most important people because when we went and looked into the market, we looked into what determined why people watched a certain stream or went to a certain website. They would just follow the content. You had a piece of content you loved and the broadcaster would come with you. That's actually the one really important point about user interviews, which is that who you talk to is as important as what questions you ask and what you pull away from it. Because if you go and talk to a set of users, if we had gone and talked to viewers only, we would have gotten completely different feedback than if we were talking to the broadcasters. Talking to the broadcasters gave us insight into how to build something for them. That turned out to be strategically correct. I wish I could tell you the recipe for figuring who the target user is for your product, and who your target user should be, but there isn't a recipe.
我想让你们了解一下与用户交谈的意义。我们认为广播公司是最重要的人群，因为当我们去调查市场时，我们调查了是什么决定了人们为什么观看某个流媒体或访问某个网站。他们只关注内容。你有一个你喜欢的内容，广播公司就会跟着你走。这其实就是用户访谈中非常重要的一点，即与谁交谈和问什么问题、从中得到什么信息同样重要。因为如果你去与一组用户交谈，如果我们只与观众交谈，我们得到的反馈就会与我们与广播公司交谈得到的反馈完全不同。与广播公司的交流让我们深入了解了如何为他们制作节目。事实证明，这在战略上是正确的。我希望我能告诉你如何确定产品的目标用户，以及目标用户应该是谁的秘诀，但没有秘诀。 It comes down to thinking really hard and using your judgment to figure out who you are really building this for.
归根结底，就是要认真思考，运用自己的判断力，弄清自己到底是为谁而建。

I want to do something interactive now. I'm going to get a bunch of ideas from you guys and I'm going to pick one of them. I want everyone to sit down and do step one of this process right now. Which people, where would you go to find the people you needed to talk to in order to learn about what you should build. The idea we are going to use is a lecture focused note taking app. The idea is: the state of the art for note taking is not good enough yet and I want to make a note taking app that improves that experience. It will make taking notes in class better. Maybe it has collaboration features or maybe it helps you focus better somehow. It has multimedia enhancements. All sorts of possible features. That's the idea. So take 120 seconds right now and think about not what you would ask or what the right features for this app is, but who would you talk to? Who is going to give you that feedback that is going to tell you whether this is good or not. It’s good to think in your head but actually write it down and come up with the five people you would talk to. The five types of people you talk to, and who you think the most important one was. There's nothing like actually running through something and trying to do it. Actually get it into your head that it's right way to do it. I'm gratified to hear the clicking of keyboards now. If you are following along at home actually do it. Think about who would you talk to because that's the first question for almost any startup. You need the answer to the question: who is my user and where am I going to find them?
我现在想做一些互动的事情。我会从你们那里收集一些想法，然后从中选出一个。我希望每个人都坐下来，现在就做这个过程的第一步。你会去找哪些人，去哪里找你需要交谈的人，以了解你应该建立什么。我们要使用的创意是一款专注于讲座的笔记应用。我们的想法是：目前的笔记技术还不够完善，我想做一款能改善这种体验的笔记应用程序。它能让课堂笔记做得更好。也许它有协作功能，也许它能帮助你更好地集中注意力。它还有多媒体增强功能。各种可能的功能。这就是我的想法。所以，现在就花 120 秒钟，想想你会问什么，或者这款应用的正确功能是什么，但你会跟谁说呢？谁会给你反馈，告诉你这是好还是不好。在脑海中思考是件好事，但实际上要把它写下来，想出你会与之交谈的五个人。你会与哪五类人交谈，以及你认为最重要的人是谁。没有什么能比得上真正去做一件事。让你的头脑中真正意识到这样做才是正确的。我很高兴现在能听到键盘的敲击声。如果你在家里跟着做，那就去做吧。想一想你会跟谁谈，因为这几乎是所有初创企业的第一个问题。你需要找到问题的答案：谁是我的用户，我到哪里去找他们？

Alright, that's shorter than you normally would think about this problem. It's actually a really tricky problem, figuring out where to source people is pretty hard. We’re going to move along in this highly abbreviated version of learning how to build a product and running a user interview.
好吧，这个问题比你通常想的要短。实际上，这是一个非常棘手的问题，要想知道从哪里寻找用户是非常困难的。接下来，我们将以这种高度简略的方式来学习如何构建产品和进行用户访谈。

Can I get one volunteer from the audience to come up and tell us who you would talk to. And we'll talk about it.
请观众中的一位志愿者上台，告诉我们你会和谁交谈。我们就来谈谈。

Audience Member 1: I would definitely talk to college students first, because we sit in a lot of lectures. Specifically, I want to talk to college students studying different subjects to see if they are an English major, if that makes a difference versus studying Math or Computer Science in terms of how you want to take notes in different lectures.
听众 1：我肯定会先和大学生谈谈，因为我们经常听讲座。具体来说，我想和学习不同科目的大学生谈谈，看看如果他们是英语专业的学生，在不同的讲座上如何记笔记，这和学习数学或计算机科学的学生是否有区别。

Emmett Shear: You're going to talk to a bunch of college students. Would you pick any particular subset of college students? We don't want to talk to all college students.
埃米特-谢尔你要和一群大学生谈话。你会选择某个特定的大学生群体吗？我们不想和所有大学生谈话。
Audience Member 1: I want to only talk to college students and break down the divisions by people who study different areas. It would make sense for people who have different study techniques, because some people take a lot of notes. Some people don't take that many notes but still jot stuff down.
听众 1：我只想和大学生交流，按学习不同领域的人进行细分。这对有不同学习方法的人来说是有意义的，因为有些人做了很多笔记。有些人不做那么多笔记，但还是会记下一些东西。

Emmett Shear: That's a really good start. Those are obviously the users you want to go talk to, especially if you are targeting college students as the consumer. If you are talking to college students as the consumer, you are going to get a lot out of students about what their current note taking habits are and what they would be excited about.
埃米特-谢尔这真是一个好的开始。这些用户显然是你想去接触的，尤其是如果你的目标消费者是大学生的话。如果你把大学生作为消费者，你就会从学生那里了解到他们目前的笔记习惯是什么，以及他们会对什么感到兴奋。

One of the problems with selling things to college students is that college students actually don't spend very much money. It's really hard to get you guys to open your wallets, especially if you want them to pay for a school related thing. People don't even want to buy text books. You probably all use checks or debit or borrow from your friends. So one of the things that I think you would be missing if you go after just the students, is who the most important person to this this app is. If you actually had a note taking app for colleges, the people most likely to actually buy a note taking app would be college IT.
向大学生推销东西的一个问题是，大学生实际上不怎么花钱。要让你们打开钱包真的很难，尤其是当你想让他们为学校相关的东西买单时。大家甚至连教科书都不想买。你们可能都使用支票、借记卡或向朋友借钱。所以我认为，如果你只追求学生，你就会忽略一个问题，那就是谁才是这款应用最重要的用户。如果你真的有一款针对高校的笔记应用，那么最有可能购买笔记应用的人就是高校 IT 人员。

Presumably for the most part you want to sell software to students, and the people who have to be brought into that is usually the school administrators. That might be one approach. I feel like you will presumably go talk to college students and find out they don't actually buy any note software now at all. It's possible they do, in which case I'm completely wrong. This is why you have to go and talk to the users.
据推测，在大多数情况下，你都想把软件卖给学生，而必须让他们参与进来的人通常是学校管理人员。这可能是一种方法。我觉得你可能会去跟大学生们谈谈，然后发现他们现在根本不买任何笔记软件。也有可能他们会买，那我就完全错了。这就是为什么你必须去和用户交谈。

But you then have to try other groups. So I would talk to college IT administrators as well.That's another area that's really promising. You might talk to parents. Who spends money on their kids’ education? Who is willing to pull their wallet out? The parents of kids who are freshmen going to college for the first time. You need this app to make your kid productive so that they don't fail out of college. There are actually a lot of groups that aren't necessarily obvious users but who are potentially critical to your app's success. When you are at the very beginning of a startup, when you have this idea that you think is awesome, you want to have the broadest group you possibly can. You don't just want to talk to one type of person. You want to get familiar with the various kind of people who could be contributing.
但你还必须尝试其他团体。所以，我也会和大学的 IT 管理员谈谈，这是另一个很有前景的领域。你也可以和家长谈谈。谁在孩子的教育上花钱？谁愿意掏钱包？就是那些第一次上大学的新生家长。你需要这款应用让你的孩子有出息，这样他们才不会在大学里失败。实际上，有很多群体并不一定是显而易见的用户，但他们对应用程序的成功至关重要。在创业初期，当你有了这个你认为很棒的想法时，你希望拥有最广泛的用户群。你不想只和一种人交谈。你要熟悉各种可能做出贡献的人。

Let's have someone come up and we're going to pretend we are running a user interview. We are going to talk to a college student and try to find out what we should build, what we should get into this note taking app. Another volunteer please, for running an interview. Hello.
让我们找个人上来，假装我们正在进行用户访谈。我们将与一名大学生交谈，试图找出我们应该在这款笔记应用中添加哪些内容。请另一位志愿者上台进行访谈大家好

Audience Member 2: Hi, I'm Stephanie.
观众 2：你好，我是斯蒂芬妮。

Emmett Shear: Hi Stephanie.
埃米特-谢尔嗨，斯蒂芬妮。

Audience Member 2: Nice to meet you.
观众 2：很高兴见到你。

Emmett Shear: Welcome. Thank you for agreeing to do this user interview with us. I want to hear from you about your note taking habits. How do you take notes today?
埃米特-谢尔欢迎您。感谢您同意接受我们的用户访谈。我想听听你的笔记习惯。你今天是如何记笔记的？

Audience Member 2: Sure, I take notes in a variety of ways. Because of speed and efficiency, and because I can come back to it later, it’s easy for me to take notes on my laptop. A lot of those would be primarily text based, but in certain classes, for example if I am taking a History class, most of it would be in text. But if I am taking a Physics class, there are going to be more complex diagrams and different angles I have to draw.
听众 2：当然，我做笔记的方式多种多样。因为速度快、效率高，而且我可以稍后再看，所以我很容易在笔记本电脑上记笔记。很多笔记都是以文字为主，但在某些课程上，比如我上历史课，大部分都是文字笔记。但如果我上的是物理课，就需要画一些更复杂的图表和不同的角度。

Emmett Shear: What software do you use for this stuff today?
埃米特-谢尔你现在用什么软件做这个？

Audience Member 2: I just do pen and paper for that.
听众 2：我只用纸笔写。
Emmett Shear: You do pen and paper. So you do a combination. You take notes with pen and paper. You take notes with the computer sometimes.
埃米特-谢尔你做笔和纸。所以你要做一个组合。你用纸笔记笔记。有时也用电脑做笔记。

Audience Member 2: Yup. 观众 2：是的。

Emmett Shear: When you take all these notes, at the end, do you actually review them? Be honest! Do you actually go back and look at this notes?
埃米特-谢尔当你做这些笔记的时候，最后，你真的会回顾它们吗？说实话！你真的会回头看这些笔记吗？

Audience Member 2: The pen and paper not so much. But yes to the software based. It's easier to access and it's easier for me to share and collaborate and maybe even merge notes with classmates and friends.
听众 2：纸笔就不多了。但我喜欢用软件。它更容易访问，我也更容易与同学和朋友分享和合作，甚至合并笔记。

Emmett Shear: What did you use to take notes today on your computer?
埃米特-谢尔你今天在电脑上用什么做笔记？

Audience Member 2: Google Docs and Evernote.
听众 2：谷歌文档和 Evernote。

Emmett Shear: Why two things at the same time?
埃米特-谢尔为什么要同时做两件事？

Audience Member 2: Evernote is easy if I am trying to just collect for myself. You can share, but Google Docs is easier to share. If a friend has already created a folder in Google Docs, I just have to add to that folder. If it’s for my personal use I tend to go more toward Evernote.
听众 2：如果我只想自己收集，Evernote 就很方便。你可以共享，但 Google Docs 更容易共享。如果朋友已经在 Google 文档中创建了文件夹，我只需添加到该文件夹即可。如果是个人使用，我更倾向于 Evernote。

Emmett Shear: It sounds like you have a lot of note taking collaborations.
埃米特-谢尔听起来你们有很多记笔记的合作。

Audience Member 2: Yeah, I wish it was integrated.
观众 2：是的，我希望它是一体化的。

Emmett Shear: Tell me more about that. Do you wind up taking most of the notes, most of the value out of notes that other people take? Or is it mostly your own notes you review at the end of the semester? How does that work?
埃米特-谢尔跟我详细说说。你会从别人的笔记中获取大部分价值吗？还是主要是你自己在学期末回顾自己的笔记？你是怎么做的？

Audience Member 2: It's mostly mine because I am pretty picky about the way I like things organized. Design wise or formatting, even color, I am really particular with. The font that we use really effects the way I study. So I tend to personalize notes, even after I merge them.
听众 2：主要是我的问题，因为我对自己喜欢的组织方式非常挑剔。无论是设计还是格式，甚至是颜色，我都很挑剔。我们使用的字体真的会影响我的学习方式。因此，我倾向于个性化笔记，即使是在合并之后。

Emmett Shear: So you're pulling notes from other people but then you merge them into what works for you. Awesome! If you have Evernote notes and you have Google Docs notes, and you have pen and paper notes, once the semester is over, do you ever go back to any of that stuff or is it per quarter? Once the quarter is over, do you ever go back to any of that stuff?
埃米特-谢尔所以，你从别人那里收集笔记，然后把它们合并成适合你的内容。真棒！如果你有Evernote笔记，有谷歌文档笔记，还有纸笔笔记，一旦学期结束，你还会再去看那些东西吗？一旦学期结束，你还会再去看那些东西吗？
Audience Member 2: For classes not so much, but if it's notes that I have taken for talks, like these for example, or if it's interview prep, I tend to go back because I like to keep these things fresh in my mind. They help me prep for future things.
听众 2：课堂上不太喜欢，但如果是我为讲座做的笔记，比如这些，或者如果是面试准备，我往往会回头看，因为我喜欢让这些东西在我脑海中保持新鲜。它们能帮助我为将来的事情做准备。

Emmett Shear: That's interesting. Tell me more about that. You take notes not just in class.
埃米特-谢尔That's interesting.跟我多说说。你不仅在课堂上做笔记。

Audience Member 2: I take notes to summarize main points. For example, inspirational quotes from talks like these. If I am going to an event where I am going to meet someone, notes help me remember what was at the talk.
听众 2：我做笔记是为了总结要点。例如，像这样的讲座中的励志名言。如果我要参加一个活动，要去见某个人，笔记可以帮助我记住讲座的内容。

Emmett Shear: Awesome. Normally I would actually dig into a lot more detail. There are a huge amount of open questions that are still in my mind after hearing that. Which people do you collaborate with? How long are your notes?. How much time do you spend note taking? I would dig into her current behavior but in the interest of time and not making everyone hear about the intricacies of one person’s note taking habits forever, we're going to move on. Thank you very much Stephanie.
埃米特-谢尔真棒。通常情况下，我会深入探讨更多细节。听完之后，我脑子里还有很多问题没有解决。你和哪些人合作？你的笔记有多长？你花了多少时间记笔记？我本想深入了解她目前的行为，但为了节省时间，也为了不让大家永远听到一个人记笔记习惯的复杂性，我们还是继续吧。非常感谢斯蒂芬妮。

Audience Member 2: Thank you.
听众 2：谢谢。

Emmett Shear: I appreciate that. You notice we are not talking about the actual content of the app at all. I'm not really interested in features. I don't want to know about a specific feature set in Google Docs or Evernote. I might dig a little more into which features actually get used. If she's actively collaborating, how does that work? I heard some interesting things, " We use a folder." That's interesting to me.
埃米特-谢尔非常感谢。你注意到我们根本没有讨论应用程序的实际内容。我对功能并不感兴趣。我不想了解 Google Docs 或 Evernote 的具体功能。我可能会更深入地了解哪些功能会被实际使用。如果她在积极协作，那是怎么做到的？我听到一些有趣的说法，"我们使用文件夹"。我觉得很有意思。

The main thing you're trying to do when running this first set of interviews is not necessarily ask questions about optimizing user flow. Or questions about the specifics of any of that stuff. That can be distracting because users think they know what they want. You get the horseless carriage effect where you're asked for a faster horse instead of asked to design the actual solution to the problem.
在进行第一轮访谈时，你要做的主要事情是，不一定要问有关优化用户流程的问题。或者问一些具体的问题。这会分散用户的注意力，因为用户认为他们知道自己想要什么。这样就会产生 "无马的马车 "效应，你会被要求设计一匹更快的马，而不是设计解决问题的实际方案。

So you want to stay as far away from features as possible because the things they tell you feel overwhelmingly real. When you have a real user asking you for a feature, it's very hard to say no to them because here's a real person who really has this problem. They're saying, "Build me this feature." But as you start to talk to lots of people and really get a sense for what their problems are, you figure out if this is actually a promising area or not.
因此，你要尽可能远离功能，因为他们告诉你的事情让你感觉非常真实。当你有一个真实的用户要求你提供功能时，你很难拒绝他们，因为这是一个真实的人，他真的有这个问题。他们说，"给我建这个功能吧"。但当你开始与很多人交谈，真正了解到他们的问题所在时，你就会发现这是否是一个真正有前途的领域。

Based on what I heard there, starting from that user interview, I'm not necessarily positive there is a problem.
根据我在那里听到的，从那个用户访谈开始，我不一定肯定有问题。 At least there might not be a big enough problem that it's worth building a whole new product for. I didn't hear a lot of things that were big blockers, where there is something really wrong with the way it was working. Unless I have some big idea, I would take that as a negative sign. That doesn't necessarily mean you can't move forward and keep talking to more people. Just because you don't get anything out of talking to the first person doesn't mean there are not going to be more people who actually have a problem. Once you've talked to about six to eight people, you are usually about done. It's unlikely you're going to discover a bunch of new information. Which is why it is important to talk to different extremes of people. Go find people who are different, because if you talk to six Stanford College students you are going to get a very different response than if you talk to six high school students or six parents.
至少，问题可能还没有大到值得为此开发一个全新产品的地步。我并没有听到什么大问题，也就是工作方式真的有问题。除非我有什么好点子，否则我会把它当作一个负面信号。这并不一定意味着你不能继续前进，不能继续与更多的人交谈。与第一个人交谈没有任何收获，并不意味着不会有更多的人真正遇到问题。一旦你与六到八个人交谈过，通常就差不多了。你不可能再发现什么新信息了。这就是为什么与不同极端的人交谈非常重要。因为如果你与六名斯坦福大学的学生交谈，你所得到的回应会与你与六名高中生或六名家长交谈时得到的回应截然不同。

Based on that though, you can come up with a set of ideas.You have this information about how someone takes notes. You had some ideas as to how you could build something cool. If you are going to build just one feature on top of Google Docs, what would that feature be? For a new product like this, it might be a good way to start thinking about where to go. They are extensively using this thing right now, how can we make that experience just one quantum better? Something that would be really exciting to this person, something that would be one step ahead. Take two minutes and think about what that feature might be. Try to come up with what you might do based on what you heard from Stephanie that could convince her to switch away from her current collaborative, multi-person, all working together work flow on Google Docs to your new thing that has the features of Google Docs plus this one special thing that is going to make it more useful and convince them to stop using the thing they are already using.
但在此基础上，你可以提出一系列想法。你掌握了关于某人如何记笔记的信息。你有一些关于如何创建很酷的东西的想法。如果你只想在谷歌文档的基础上构建一项功能，那这项功能会是什么呢？对于这样一个新产品来说，这可能是一个很好的方式来开始思考如何发展。他们现在正在广泛使用这个东西，我们怎样才能让他们的体验更好呢？让这个人真正兴奋的东西，领先一步的东西。花两分钟时间想想这个功能可能是什么。根据你从斯蒂芬妮那里听到的信息，试着想出你可以做些什么来说服她，让她不再使用谷歌文档上现有的多人协同工作流程，而是改用你的新产品，这个新产品除了具有谷歌文档的功能外，还有一个特别之处，那就是可以让谷歌文档变得更有用，并说服他们不再使用他们已经在使用的产品。

Awesome, alright. I am going to invite our third guest up.
好极了我要请第三位嘉宾上台了

Audience Member 3: The reason she uses Evernote is because of sticky note type notes. More thoughts and like details. I feel that Google Docs has documents and not smaller notes. I feel like a feature that would be super would be a mobile version of drive that isn't clunky and doesn't make you use documents could be useful.
听众 3：她使用 Evernote 的原因是便签类型的笔记。更多的想法和细节。我觉得 Google Docs 只有文档，没有更小的笔记。我觉得如果能有一个移动版的 Drive 就更好了，它不会很笨重，也不会让你使用文档。

Emmett Shear: Awesome. That's a good insight. That's exactly one of the things you get out of that user interview. Now you have this idea. You've gotten this user’s feedback. What if we had a Google Docs that had the collaborative aspects and the group aspects but where you could pull in more little one off notes. A product designed more around note taking. The question is now, once you have this idea, is this enough? Is this something people would actually switch to? There are two ways to validate that. One, if you are quick at programming you can literally just go build it, throw it out into the world, and see what happens. When that works, it's an excellent way to approach the problem. But a lot of the time that one little thing that's a bit better might take you three months to actually build. So you want to go out and validate that idea further before you start building it.
埃米特-谢尔Awesome.这是很好的见解。这正是你从用户访谈中得到的东西之一。现在你有了这个想法。你已经得到了用户的反馈。如果我们有一个谷歌文档，它既有协作功能，又有群组功能，同时你还可以在其中添加更多的小笔记。这样的产品设计更多的是围绕记笔记展开的。现在的问题是，一旦你有了这个想法，这就足够了吗？人们真的会转而使用它吗？有两种方法可以验证这一点。其一，如果你编程很快，你可以直接构建它，把它扔到世界上，看看会发生什么。当这种方法奏效时，它就是解决问题的绝佳方法。但很多时候，一个好一点的小东西可能要花三个月的时间才能真正构建出来。因此，在开始构建之前，你需要去进一步验证这个想法。

You might take that idea and draw diagrams of what it would look like. Draw the work flow and put that in front of people. The one thing you really don't want to do is ask them about a great idea for a feature. Ask them, "Are you excited about it?" Because the feedback you get from users if you tell them about a feature and ask them, "Is this feature good?" is often, "Oh yeah that's great." When you actually build it, you find out that while they thought it was a clever idea, no one actually cares to switch and get it. So the one question you can't ask is, "Is this feature actually good or not?"
你可以根据这个想法，画出它的示意图。画出工作流程，并将其展示在人们面前。你最不想做的一件事，就是问他们关于某个功能的好主意。问他们 "你对此感到兴奋吗？"因为如果你告诉用户某个功能，然后问他们 "这个功能好吗？"，用户的反馈往往是 "哦，好极了"。但当你真正构建它时，你会发现，虽然他们认为这是一个聪明的想法，但实际上没有人愿意切换并获得它。所以你不能问的一个问题是："这个功能到底好不好？"

Sam Altman: What is the minimum that you can do to actually build on that question? Between asking and actually building the full thing?
萨姆-奥特曼：要真正解决这个问题，最起码要做些什么？从提出问题到真正完成整个过程？

Emmett Shear: What's the minimum you can actually get away with to validate your product, given you can't actually just go and ask them, "Is this good or not?" It's highly dependent on the particular feature. Usually the best thing you can do is just hack something together. If your idea is to build something on top of Google Docs, don't go rebuild Google Documents but for note taking. Find a way to write a browser extension that stuffs that little bit of incremental feature in and see if it's actually useful for people. Find a way to cheat is what it comes down to, because if you can't actually put it in front of people it's really, really hard to find that out.
Emmett Shear：如果你不能直接去问他们 "这东西到底好不好"，那么你至少可以用多少来验证你的产品？这在很大程度上取决于特定的功能。通常情况下，你能做的最好的事情就是把一些东西整合在一起。如果你的想法是在谷歌文档的基础上构建一些东西，那就不要去重建谷歌文档，而是去做笔记。想办法写一个浏览器扩展，把那一点点增量功能塞进去，然后看看它是否真的对人们有用。因为如果你不能真正把它放在人们面前，那就真的很难发现它。

For bigger things, where you are actually trying to get people to spend money, it gets a lot easier. If you are selling, it's great. Sales is the cure-all for this problem. Get people to give you their credit card and I guarantee you they are actually interested in the feature. It's one of the most validating things that you can do for a product. Go out there and actually get customers to commit to pay you up front. The problem when you are working on a student note taking app, is that's going to be relatively hard. Unless your idea is that you're actually going to sell it, the trial version is probably free. You're not necessarily going to learn that much by trying to charge people money. But if you go out there and can get people to say "Hey, I am going to give you money," the money test is amazing. It clarifies whether or not they're really excited about your product. If you're not five dollars excited about it, you're probably not very excited about it.
如果要做更大的事情，真正要让人们花钱，那就容易多了。如果是销售，那就太好了。销售是解决这个问题的万能药。让人们把信用卡交给你，我保证他们会对你的功能感兴趣。这是你能为产品做的最有效的事情之一。走出去，真正让客户承诺先付钱给你。当你在开发一款学生笔记应用时，问题就在于这将会相对困难。除非你的想法是真的要把它卖出去，否则试用版很可能是免费的。你不一定能从收费中学到多少东西。但如果你走出去，能让人们说 "嘿，我要给你钱"，那么金钱测试就非常棒。它可以澄清他们是否真的对你的产品感兴趣。如果没有五块钱的兴奋感，你可能就不是很兴奋。

The last thing I want to do is work through what happened at Twitch. I brought some slides that I'd like to put up. They are representative excerpts of Twitch feedback. I had a twenty-six page document of all the feedback and realized that reading that was going to be a little bit tedious. Lots of people said this to us when we asked them questions. I've pre-condensed the feedback for you.
我想做的最后一件事是回顾一下在 Twitch 发生的事情。我带来了一些幻灯片，我想把它们放上来。它们是 Twitch 反馈意见的代表性摘录。我有一份长达 26 页的所有反馈文件，但我意识到阅读这些内容会有点乏味。当我们向他们提问时，很多人都这么说。我已经为您提前浓缩了这些反馈。

To launch Twitch, we talked to a bunch of existing Justin.tv broadcasters and asked them about their experience broadcasting, what they liked about broadcasting, why they broadcasted, what they broadcasted. What else was going on in their life? When you talk to detailed users of your product, they come back to you with very detailed things about features because they get mired in the features. You have to sort of read between the lines. They ask us for things like, “I want a way to clear the ban list in my chatroom." That was actually a very common request because there was a very particular issue with how our chatroom is worked. People would ask for the ability to edit titles of highlights after creating them. This stuff was really consistent.
为了推出 Twitch，我们与许多现有的 Justin.tv 主播进行了交谈，询问他们的广播经历、喜欢广播的原因、广播的原因以及广播的内容。他们的生活中还发生了什么？当你与产品的详细用户交谈时，他们会向你详细介绍产品的功能，因为他们会陷入功能的泥潭。你必须读懂字里行间的意思。他们会向我们提出这样的要求："我想要一个清除聊天室禁言列表的方法"。这其实是一个很常见的要求，因为我们聊天室的工作方式存在一个非常特殊的问题。人们会要求在创建集锦后能够编辑集锦标题。这种情况非常普遍。

As we talked to broadcasters, we probably talked to twelve to fourteen broadcasters of the Justin.tv gaming platform, we got all this feedback. "Your competitors have all these cool features like polls and scrolling text. I can personalize chat there." Then we have some positive feedback. "You guys don't have ads. You're able to ban trolls." A bunch of stuff about chat, around interactivity with their viewers. That was all really interesting. This is what the Justin.tv broadcasters wanted us to build. This is where they felt pain using the product. If you thought that what we did was go and address these problems, you would be wrong. People who are using your service already are willing to put up with all these issues, which kind of means that these are probably not the biggest problems. If you are willing to ignore the fact that you can edit the ban list and that titles are editable, that there is no way to get trolls out of your channel and you're using the service anyways, maybe those aren't huge problems. That brings up a really important point, which is you have to compare groups of people. And compare the level in which they argue.
在我们与广播公司（大概有 12 到 14 家 Justin.tv 游戏平台的广播公司）交谈时，我们得到了很多反馈。"你们的竞争对手都有这些很酷的功能，比如投票和滚动文本。我可以在那里个性化聊天。"然后是一些积极的反馈"你们没有广告。你们能禁止巨魔"一大堆关于聊天和与观众互动的内容这些都非常有趣。这就是 Justin.tv 广播公司希望我们构建的内容。这就是他们在使用产品时感到痛苦的地方。如果你认为我们所做的就是去解决这些问题，那你就错了。使用你们服务的用户已经愿意忍受所有这些问题，这就意味着这些问题可能并不是最大的问题。如果你愿意忽略这样一个事实，即你可以编辑禁言名单，标题是可以编辑的，没有办法把巨魔赶出你的频道，而你却仍然在使用这项服务，也许这些都不是大问题。这就提出了一个非常重要的问题，那就是你必须对不同的人群进行比较。比较他们争论的程度。

Here we have competitor broadcaster feedback, which is really interesting. This is stuff we heard a lot from people who were using other broadcast platforms. They wanted to be able to switch multiple people onto their channel at the same time. They complained about us not having a revshare program. They talked a lot about how they were trying to make a living and they really wanted to make money pursuing this this gaming broadcasting thing. They talked about video stability. Our service wasn't good in Europe. Globally, video stability was this huge, huge issue. If you compare and contrast, it was really different. What people who didn't use our service cared about was completely different than the people who were using our service. We focused on this stuff because this was the stuff that was so bad that people weren't even willing to use our service. Most of it we hadn't actuallythought about it because our user base happened to be well educated and knew about all their options. Reaching out to them meant that they probably already tried all four services and actually had an opinion. It's great when you can get users who are that informed and understand the space that well.
这里有竞争对手广播公司的反馈，非常有趣。我们经常从使用其他广播平台的用户那里听到这样的反馈。他们希望能同时将多人切换到自己的频道上。他们抱怨我们没有 revshare 计划。他们谈了很多关于如何谋生的话题，他们真的很希望通过游戏直播赚钱。他们谈到了视频的稳定性。我们在欧洲的服务并不好。在全球范围内，视频稳定性是一个巨大的问题。如果对比一下，就会发现情况真的很不一样。不使用我们服务的人和使用我们服务的人关心的问题完全不同。我们之所以关注这些问题，是因为这些问题太糟糕了，以至于人们根本不愿意使用我们的服务。实际上，我们并没有考虑过其中的大部分问题，因为我们的用户群恰好受过良好的教育，知道他们所有的选择。与他们接触意味着他们可能已经尝试过所有四种服务，并有了自己的看法。当你能得到那些信息灵通、对这一领域非常了解的用户时，那真是太棒了。

The other important thing we did was talk to non-broadcasters. We talked to all the people who weren't using us or our competitors. In many ways, those were the most important people. Talking to your competitors is a a short term win, unless your software is like Google, which is a search engine which everyone uses, then there may be no non-users to convert. In the case of gaming broadcasting, almost everyone is a non-user. The majority of people you are competing with are non-users. They are people who have never used your service before and what they say is actually the most important. What they say is the thing that blocks you from expanding the size of the market with your features.
我们做的另一件重要事情是与非广播公司交谈。我们与所有不使用我们或我们的竞争对手的人交谈。在很多方面，这些人是最重要的。与竞争对手交谈是一种短期胜利，除非你的软件像谷歌一样，是人人都在使用的搜索引擎，否则可能没有非用户可以转化。就游戏广播而言，几乎每个人都是非用户。与你竞争的大多数人都是非用户。他们是从未使用过你的服务的人，而他们所说的话其实是最重要的。他们所说的话正是阻碍您利用自己的功能扩大市场规模的因素。

If all you do is look at your competitors and talk to people who use your competitors' products, you can never expand. You're not learning things that help you expand the size of the market. You want to talk to people who aren't even trying to use these things yet. Who've thought about it maybe, but who aren’t into it. What did they say? My computer isn't fast enough. I am focused on training twelve hours day for the next tournament. I like making the perfect video and I like editing it. I upload a couple of things to YouTube. I don't do live streaming. I have no desire to go into that space. In Korea this is a big problem. Once our strategy gets broadcast in major tournaments, we have to start over. We have to come up with an entirely new strategy. The last thing we ever want to do is broadcast our practice sessions, are you crazy? That's going to hurt us in the next big tournament.
如果你只关注竞争对手，只与使用竞争对手产品的人交谈，那么你永远无法扩大市场。你学不到能帮助你扩大市场规模的东西。你要与那些还没有尝试使用这些产品的人交谈。他们也许想过，但还没有投入其中。他们怎么说？我的电脑不够快。我每天要为下一次比赛训练十二个小时。我喜欢制作完美的视频，也喜欢剪辑它。我上传了一些东西到YouTube。我不做直播。我不想进入那个领域。在韩国，这是一个大问题。一旦我们的策略在大型比赛中被转播，我们就必须重新开始。我们必须制定全新的战略。我们最不想做的事就是转播我们的训练课，你疯了吗？那会在下一次大型比赛中伤害我们的

This became big outreach program for us, trying to figure out how to get people over this. We brought people computers. We worked closely with gaming broadcast software companies to help the people who made the broadcasting software. We started building broadcasting into games and into platforms. We built broadcasting into the Xbox. We brought broadcasting into PlayStation 4 because we needed to overcome this issue. Broadcasting wasn't possible. These were the three big groups we looked at for broadcasting. You combine that feedback and what it tells you is not features to build, because the features they asked for, polls, the ability to have a child account, we haven't built most of that stuff. What was important were the issues, the goals they were trying to accomplish.
这成了我们的一项大型外联计划，我们试图找出如何让人们克服这个问题的方法。我们给人们带来了电脑。我们与游戏广播软件公司密切合作，帮助那些制作广播软件的人。我们开始在游戏和平台中加入广播功能。我们在 Xbox 中加入了广播功能。我们在 PlayStation 4 中加入了广播功能，因为我们需要解决这个问题。广播是不可能的。这就是我们在广播方面所关注的三大群体。把这些反馈结合起来，你就会发现，我们要做的不是功能，因为他们要求的功能、投票、拥有儿童账户的功能，我们大部分都没有做。重要的是问题，是他们想要实现的目标。

People wanted money. People wanted stability and quality. People wanted universal access for viewers all around the world. That became our focus. We dumped almost all of our resources into things no one ever mentioned in an interview. Those were the things that actually addressed the problem. The way that you can tell that it worked is as we would build these things, we would go back to exact same people we interviewed and we would say, "You told us you really cared a lot about making money. We built you this subscription program that will let you make money."
人们想要钱。人们想要稳定和高质量。人们希望全世界的观众都能收看。这成了我们的重点。我们把几乎所有的资源都投入到了那些没有人在采访中提到过的事情上。这些才是真正解决问题的方法。你可以看出它奏效的方法是，当我们建立这些东西时，我们会回到我们采访过的那些人那里，我们会说："你告诉我们，你真的很在乎赚钱。我们为你建立了这个订阅程序，可以让你赚钱。"

It's astonishing because most people had actually never had that experience. They had never talked to someone and said, "It would be really great if your product had feature X" and then a month later your product actually has feature X, or at the very least a feature that addresses the problem that they brought up. The people we converted first to our product were the people that we talked to about user research. They were the ones who were the most impressed. Which is fun. It really worked, because we picked people who were representative. We picked big broadcasters. Small ones. Medium ones. We made sure were addressing their concerns. That was completely different from how we approached the problem at Justin.tv.
这是令人惊讶的，因为大多数人从未有过这样的经历。他们从来没有跟别人说过 "如果你们的产品有 X 功能就好了"，然后一个月后你们的产品就真的有了 X 功能，或者至少是解决了他们提出的问题的功能。我们最先将用户转化为我们产品的用户，就是那些我们与之讨论过用户研究的用户。他们给我们留下了最深刻的印象。这很有趣。这真的很有效，因为我们挑选的人都很有代表性。我们挑选了大型广播公司。小型的中型的我们确保能解决他们关心的问题这与我们在 Justin.tv 处理问题的方式完全不同。

With Justin.tv when we tried to do this, we'd go through huge amounts of data. We spent tons of time looking through Google Analytics, Mixpanel, and in-house analytics tools. Figuring out how people were trying to use the service, where our traffic came from, completion rates on flows. You can learn things from that. I'm not telling you not to look at your data. But it doesn't tell you what the problems are you need to address. We would invent these ideas at Justin.tv without talking to someone and then nine times out of ten, that idea would turn out to be bad. That’s actually one of the disappointing things about doing user interviews and getting user feedback, which is why I think so many people don't do it. You're going to get negative news about your favorite feature most of the time. You're going to have this great idea and you're going to talk to users and it’s going to turn out that nobody actually wants it. They are actually concerned about a completely different set of things and they don't care about what you thought was important at all. That’s a little bit sad, but think about how sad you'd be in four months when you launch that feature and it turns out no one actually wants to use it.
在 Justin.tv 上，当我们尝试这样做的时候，我们需要处理大量的数据。我们花了大量时间查看 Google Analytics、Mixpanel 和内部分析工具。弄清楚人们是如何尝试使用这项服务的，我们的流量来自哪里，流量的完成率如何。你可以从中学到东西。我不是让你不看数据。但这并不能告诉你需要解决什么问题。在 Justin.tv，我们会在不和别人商量的情况下发明这些想法，但十有八九，这些想法都会被证明是糟糕的。这其实也是做用户访谈和获取用户反馈的一个令人失望的地方，这也是为什么我觉得很多人不这么做的原因。在大多数情况下，你会得到关于你最喜欢的功能的负面消息。你会有一个很棒的想法，你会与用户交谈，但结果却是没有人真正想要这个想法。他们关心的其实是完全不同的事情，他们根本不关心你认为重要的事情。这固然有点可悲，但想想四个月后，当你推出这项功能时，却发现没有人真正想要使用它，你会有多难过。

That's the lecture section. I want to take some questions from the audience.
这就是演讲部分。我想请听众提几个问题。

Audience Member 4 : What do you see startups get most wrong about interviews? Most startups don't do them at all, but the ones that do, what are their most common mistakes?
听众 4：你认为初创企业在面试方面最容易犯的错误是什么？大多数初创企业根本不做面试，但做了面试的初创企业最常犯的错误是什么？

Emmett Shear: The most common mistake is showing people your product. Don't show them your product. It’s like telling them about a feature. You want to learn what's already in their heads. You want avoid putting things there. The other thing is asking about your pet feature direction. If you think you want to add subscriptions to your product, going and asking people, "Would you pay for a subscription? Would you use this feature?"
埃米特-谢尔最常见的错误是向人们展示你的产品。不要向他们展示你的产品。这就像向他们介绍功能一样。你要了解他们脑子里已经有了什么。你要避免把东西放在那里。另一件事是询问你喜欢的功能方向。如果你认为你想在产品中加入订阅功能，那么你可以去问他们："你会付费订阅吗？你会使用这个功能吗？

Another big mistake people make is talking to who is available rather than talking to who they need to talk to. There are certain users are really easy to get at because they are members of your forum already. You have some product forum, you talk to the users on that forum because they’re easy to access. We spent weeks digging for identifying information and figuring out who these people were so we could talk to them. This was a site that did not support messaging, so there was no obvious way to interact with them. We spent a bunch of time trying to network and find those users. Because if you just talk to who's easy to talk to, you're not getting the best data. The fortunate side there is almost everyone is flattered to be asked what they think, so they will actually talk to you and tell you things.
人们犯的另一个大错误是，只与有时间的人交谈，而不是与需要交谈的人交谈。有些用户很容易接触到，因为他们已经是你的论坛成员。如果你有某个产品论坛，你就会与该论坛上的用户交谈，因为他们很容易接触到。我们花了几周时间挖掘身份信息，弄清这些人是谁，这样我们就能和他们交谈了。这是一个不支持消息传递的网站，所以没有明显的方式与他们互动。我们花了很多时间试图通过网络找到这些用户。因为如果你只是和容易交谈的人交谈，你就得不到最好的数据。幸运的一面是，几乎每个人都会因为被问及他们的想法而受宠若惊，因此他们会和你交谈，告诉你一些事情。

Audience Member 5: How hard was it to get buy in from the rest of your company? You can say, "I'm in charge so you're doing what I say" but that's probably not the best way of doing it.
听众 5：要得到公司其他人的支持有多难？你可以说 "我说了算，所以你们要听我的"，但这可能不是最好的办法。

Emmett Shear: That's a good question. If you just go to them and say, "I talked to the users. I figured it out. We have to build this," it's really hard because people don't trust you. There's something magic about showing them the interview though. I recommend recording interviews. It also stops you from taking notes in the middle, which is a little bit disruptive. It makes it hard for you to actually engage in the conversation. You can then play that recording for people. They don't have to be there for the entirety of all the interviews, but when you want to make a point about what what you should be building and why, you can play the interview back for the rest of the company. It's like magic, the influence it has on people's thoughts, on what is the right thing to build.
埃米特-谢尔这个问题问得好。如果你只是去跟他们说："我跟用户谈过了。我想出来了。我们必须建立这个系统。"这真的很难，因为人们不信任你。不过，向他们展示访谈内容还是很有魔力的。我建议对采访进行录音。这样你就不会在中间记笔记了，因为这有点扰乱思路。这样你就很难真正参与谈话。然后，你可以把录音播放给别人听。他们不必全程参与所有的访谈，但当你想说明你应该建设什么以及为什么建设时，你可以为公司的其他人回放访谈。这就像魔法一样，影响着人们的想法，影响着什么是正确的建设。

Audience Member 6: Since you mentioned recording, did you try to insist on doing Skype interviews rather than over email?
观众 6：既然您提到了录音，那么您是否曾尝试坚持进行 Skype 采访，而不是通过电子邮件？

Emmett Shear: You definitely want to Skype. You don't want to do interviews over email if you can avoid it, because interviews over email are non-interactive. The most interesting learnings come from the, “Interesting. Tell me more." The instant you hit this vein, they will say something that you didn't expect. And then you should drop into detective mode. Detective mode is, "Huh, that's interesting. Can you tell me more about that?" People don't like silence, so they'll keep talking to feel the void. The best part about doing an interview over Skype or doing it in person is that you have that interactive feedback. You can actually pull a lot more out of people. Email interviews are basically useless. In person or over Skype interviews are also easy to record. Make sure you ask them if it's ok to record. It's not polite to record people without their consent, but if they are willing to give you a user interview, they'll probably willing for you to record it as well.
埃米特-谢尔你肯定想用 Skype。如果可以避免的话，不要通过电子邮件进行访谈，因为电子邮件访谈是非互动的。最有趣的学习来自 "有趣。告诉我更多"。你一触及这个话题，他们就会说出一些你意想不到的东西。然后你就应该进入侦探模式。侦探模式就是："啊，这很有趣。你能告诉我更多吗？"人们不喜欢沉默，所以他们会不停地说话来感受空虚。通过 Skype 或当面进行采访的最大好处是，你可以获得互动反馈。实际上，你可以从人们口中得到更多信息。电子邮件面试基本上毫无用处。当面面试或 Skype 面试也很容易录制。但一定要询问对方是否可以录音。未经对方同意录音是不礼貌的行为，但如果对方愿意接受你的用户访谈，他们很可能也愿意让你录音。

Audience Member 6: What about the international market? You mentioned that you have a lot of users in Korea.
听众 6：那国际市场呢？您提到在韩国有很多用户。

Emmett Shear: That's really hard. To this day Twitch works way better in English speaking countries than it does in non-English speaking countries. A big part of that is we are much better at talking to people in English speaking countries and learning what their needs are. We are not as good at that in other Countries. We've tried to address that by hiring people who speak Korean and having them translate. We've tried to address it by finding representative people who speak both English and Korean and reaching out to them. But the problem is you're not actually getting a representative sample, no matter how hard you try. The very fact that they are a fluent English speaker means they are not representative of all the people who don't speak fluent English. It's a hard problem. It’s why companies find it easier to build markets in their home country. It's really hard to talk to users abroad.
埃米特-谢尔这真的很难。时至今日，Twitch 在英语国家的运作比在非英语国家要好得多。其中很大一部分原因是我们更善于与英语国家的人们交流，了解他们的需求。而在其他国家，我们在这方面就做得不好。为了解决这个问题，我们聘用了会说韩语的人，让他们进行翻译。我们曾试图通过寻找既会说英语又会说韩语的有代表性的人并与他们接触来解决这个问题。但问题是，无论你如何努力，实际上都无法获得具有代表性的样本。他们说一口流利的英语这一事实本身就意味着他们不能代表所有不会说流利英语的人。这是一个难题。这就是为什么公司发现在本国建立市场更容易。在国外与用户交谈确实很难。

Audience Member 7: What channels do you use to reach out to them? And do you ever compensate them?
听众 7：你们通过什么渠道联系他们？你们会给他们补偿吗？

Emmett Shear: The channels we used to reach out to them were onsite messaging systems. Most websites have some way to contact the user. If they are a visible user of another website, you use that site's messaging system and say, "Hey. I was watching your stream...” Or, "I'd love to ask you some questions about your usage. Would you mind hopping on a Skype call?" We also find out where those people were. We'd run into them at events because a lot of these people go to the same events. We wouldn't run the user interview at the event, but we'd get to know them. We would exchange business cards and we would get in touch with them. We tend not to compensate people. If people don't care enough about the problem to like someone who is trying to solve it, you're probably barking up the wrong tree. We never had any trouble getting people to talk to us without paying them.
埃米特-谢尔我们用来联系他们的渠道是网站消息系统。大多数网站都有一些联系用户的方式。如果他们是另一个网站的可见用户，你可以使用该网站的消息系统，然后说 "嘿，我在看你的流媒体......"。或者，"我很想问你一些关于你的使用情况的问题。你介意和我打个 Skype 电话吗？"我们还会找出这些人的行踪。我们会在活动中遇到他们，因为很多人都会参加同样的活动。我们不会在活动中进行用户访谈，但我们会认识他们。我们会交换名片，与他们取得联系。我们倾向于不给别人补偿。如果人们对问题不够关心，不喜欢试图解决问题的人，那你可能就找错人了。在不付钱的情况下，我们从未遇到过让人们与我们交谈的麻烦。

Audience Member 7: What about onsite user feedback tools?
听众 7：现场用户反馈工具怎么样？

Emmett Shear: This is a whole second set of user feedback that's really important. You're talking about when you have a new product and you want to see if it's actually going to work or not. You put it in front of people and see how they use it or not. That is super, super important. It can tell you where you went wrong building something before you launch it, which is great. It doesn't tell you what to build. It helps you iron out the kinks and edges of the thing you did build. Generally speaking, that wasn't the user feedback we were getting. I mean that stuff's good, it's much more similar though to the data driving approach. You're finding out why people are dropping off of this flow. You're not finding out the problem you should really be solving. What do they care about as a human? This early stage user interview is crucial for startups. That's where you want to focus. We didn't bring anyone in onsite, it was almost all over phone or Skype.
Emmett Shear：这是第二组非常重要的用户反馈。你说的是当你有一个新产品时，你想看看它到底能不能用。你把它放在人们面前，看看他们是如何使用它的。这一点非常非常重要。它可以告诉你，在推出新产品之前，你在哪里做错了，这非常好。它不会告诉你该构建什么。它可以帮助你解决你所做的事情的问题和缺陷。一般来说，我们得到的用户反馈不是这样的。我的意思是，这些东西很好，但它更类似于数据驱动方法。你要找出为什么人们会从这个流程中流失。你并没有发现你真正应该解决的问题。作为人类，他们关心什么？早期的用户访谈对初创企业至关重要。这才是你要关注的重点。我们没有带任何人来现场，几乎都是通过电话或 Skype 进行的。

Audience Member 8: In finding groups of people that can give different kinds of feedback, is there a group that you should focus on first?
听众 8：在寻找能提供不同反馈意见的群体时，有没有一个群体是你应该首先关注的？

Emmett Shear: Given that we had very limited resources, we focused on the people using competing products. We knew that they were already interested in the behavior that we needed and they were willing to do it at all. Therefore all we had to do was convince them to switch, which is much easier to do than to create a new behavior. We did that because we had to get some quick wins. My gaming project inside of Justin.tv would have been killed if wasn't showing twenty-five percent month over month growth every single month. That meant focusing on the short-term, on getting the people in right now. That turned out to be good in general.
埃米特-谢尔鉴于我们的资源非常有限，我们把重点放在了使用竞争产品的人身上。我们知道，他们已经对我们需要的行为感兴趣，而且他们愿意这样做。因此，我们所要做的就是说服他们转换，这比创造一种新的行为要容易得多。我们这样做是因为我们必须速战速决。如果我在 Justin.tv 的游戏项目没有实现每月百分之二十五的增长，我的项目就会被扼杀在摇篮里。这就意味着我们要着眼于短期，着眼于让更多的人加入进来。总的来说，这样做还是不错的。

Audience Member 9: In the beginning the video gaming industry was decentralized. There wasn't a lot of cohesion, but now it's very different. You said you originally spoke to broadcasters and streamers themselves. How has that changed? For example, ? has banned users or professional players from streaming their own stuff. Did you try to gain leverage with that?
观众 9：电子游戏行业最初是分散的。没有太多的凝聚力，但现在大不相同了。你说过，你最初是与广播公司和流媒体公司自己谈的。现在情况有何变化？例如，《......》禁止用户或职业选手流媒体播放自己的内容。你是否尝试过利用这一点？

Emmett Shear: Yeah, so the question is about the game publishers. Game publishers are important people in the space. Any big company for that matter isn't going to give you the time of day as a small startup. Which is both good and bad. It means you don't need to talk to them because they're not interested in you. But it means you actually just can't talk to them. We tried but no one wanted to talk to us. They did once we started getting some traction and becoming a bit of a player in the space.
埃米特-谢尔是的，所以问题是关于游戏发行商的。游戏发行商是这个领域的重要人物。任何大公司都不会给你这个小型初创公司任何机会。这既是好事也是坏事。这意味着你不需要跟他们谈，因为他们对你不感兴趣。但这也意味着，你实际上根本无法与他们交谈。我们试过，但没人愿意跟我们谈。当我们开始有了一些起色，成为这个领域的一个小角色后，他们就愿意和我们说话了。

I don't really want to talk that bad about them because they were nice enough about it. When you are a tiny little startup, there are lots of tiny little startups, and they don't have the time to talk to all of you. As we've gotten bigger, game publishers have become increasingly important for us. If I was to talk about who Twitch does user interviews with now, who we pull information form now, it would include game publishers. Definitely! They've become much more active in the space. They weren't particularly active three or four years ago. The really important user interviews in general are from the pool of people you care about, and that is going to shift over time. The people who get you started for the first six months are not who will be using it three years later. It's very important you keep doing this stuff. One of the things that is really easy to do is to do a little bit of it in the beginning and achieve some success and then stop talking to new people. That's a good way to make the next set of features you build be not as good as the first ones.
我并不想说他们的坏话，因为他们对我很好。当你是一家很小的初创公司时，有很多很小的初创公司，他们没有时间和你们所有人交谈。随着我们规模的扩大，游戏发行商对我们越来越重要。如果让我说说 Twitch 现在与谁进行用户访谈，我们现在从谁那里获取信息，其中一定包括游戏发行商。当然！他们在这个领域变得更加活跃了。三四年前他们还不是特别活跃。一般来说，真正重要的用户访谈都来自于你所关注的人群，而随着时间的推移，这些人群也会发生变化。头六个月让你开始使用的人，三年后就不会再使用了。坚持做这些事情非常重要。有一件事很容易做，那就是一开始只做一点，取得一些成功后就不再与新人交谈了。这样做很容易使你开发的下一套功能不如第一套好。

Audience Member 10: How do you give good user feedback if you're a user?
听众 10：如果你是用户，如何提供好的用户反馈？

Emmett Shear: How do you give good user feedback? I want a user to tell me what they are really thinking. What their problems really are. To just sort of ramble. I want someone to just tell me about stuff in their life. The more you learn about them as a person and the context of what they are doing, the easier it is to understand why they want the things they want. That's really the critical question. What I am looking for in someone when I am doing a user interview is someone who is going to be willing to talk a lot and be willing to give me a full picture. On flip side, if you want to help people out with good user interview feedback, ramble.Just talk about everything.
埃米特-谢尔如何提供良好的用户反馈？我希望用户能告诉我他们的真实想法。他们的问题到底是什么。就像漫谈一样。我希望用户能告诉我他们生活中的一些事情。你对他们这个人以及他们正在做的事情的背景了解得越多，就越容易理解他们为什么想要他们想要的东西。这才是真正关键的问题。在进行用户访谈时，我要找的是一个愿意说很多话、愿意给我一个完整印象的人。反过来说，如果你想帮助别人获得良好的用户访谈反馈，就应该滔滔不绝。

Alright great. Well thank you very much!
好极了非常感谢

Sam Altman: Thank you very much!
Sam Altman：非常感谢！