Vladimir Nikolsky (left) and Alex Riddick (right) at WN Conference Cyprus’24
弗拉基米爾・尼科爾斯基（左）和亞歷克斯・里迪克（右）在 WN Conference Cyprus’24

Note: This is an edited version of the conversation moderated by Julia Lebedeva, COO and partner at WN Media Group.
備註：這是由 WN Media Group 的 COO 兼合夥人 Julia Lebedeva 主持的對話的編輯版本。

Julia: Hey, guys! Let’s start with a few words about yourself.
茱莉亞：嘿，大家！讓我們先談談關於自己的一些話題。

Vladimir: I’ve been in the games industry since 2003. I was the CEO of MY.GAMES, which I founded. Now I’m the founder of Utmost Games, where our team makes strategic investments in global gaming projects.
弗拉基米爾：我從 2003 年開始從事遊戲行業。我曾是我創立的 MY.GAMES 的首席執行官。現在我是 Utmost Games 的創始人，我們的團隊在全球遊戲項目中進行戰略投資。

Alex: I’m new to the industry. My team first invested in a video game a little over two years ago. 
亞歷克斯：我是這個行業的新手。我們的團隊在兩年多前首次投資於一款視頻遊戲。

I’ve been working with traffic since 2008. I started out as a freelancer, and that’s how I got into affiliate marketing. I also worked as an ad publisher for years, with my focus ranging from mobile subscriptions and disc distribution to marketing goji berries, green coffee, and much more.
我從 2008 年開始從事流量相關工作。我最初是作為自由工作者開始的，這就是我涉足聯盟營銷的方式。多年來，我還擔任廣告發布者，我的重點從手機訂閱和光盤發行擴展到營養枸杞、綠咖啡等各種行銷。

In 2013, I stepped into the gambling industry. I had the first gambling multi-vertical affiliate program. At that time, we were number one in selling download traffic.
2013 年，我踏入了賭博行業。我擁有第一個賭博多元垂直聯盟計劃。當時，我們在銷售下載流量方面排名第一。

Since 2016, I’ve been the CEO of the PIN-UP Partners affiliate program, which today has transformed into the flagship project of PIN-UP.TRAFFIC. We now also provide various products with multi-sources of traffic through media buying and SEO.
自 2016 年起，我一直擔任 PIN-UP Partners 聯盟計劃的首席執行官，如今這已經轉變為 PIN-UP.TRAFFIC 的旗艦項目。我們現在還通過媒體購買和 SEO 提供多來源流量的各種產品。

Great! Now let’s move on to a more complex topic. What do you consider the most important thing in the games industry?
太棒了！現在讓我們轉移到一個更複雜的主題。您認為遊戲行業中最重要的是什麼？

Vladimir: Let me put this in perspective.
弗拉基米爾：讓我來把這件事情放在正確的角度來看。

Everyone involved in development or publishing sees the same picture: a dozen new games launch every day, most of which do not meet even the minimum forecasts of publishers.
所有參與開發或發行的人都看到同一幅畫：每天推出十幾款新遊戲，其中大多數甚至都未達到發行商的最低預測。

But why is that? 但為什麼呢？

Players have become very selective and demanding. They are looking for vibrant, new experiences. The time spent on each game should be worth it.
玩家變得非常挑剔和要求高。他們正在尋找充滿活力的新體驗。每款遊戲所花費的時間應該是值得的。

So the main thing in the gaming business today is everything that can evoke emotions in the player: characters, world, plot, how much the game embodies their fantasies.
所以當今遊戲業的主要重點是一切能喚起玩家情感的事物：角色、世界、情節，遊戲能否實現他們的幻想。

Only if the player is emotionally stimulated will they be ready to tell others about their experience and their vivid impressions.
只有在玩家情感受到刺激時，他們才會準備告訴其他人他們的經歷和生動印象。

This is how a hit is born, an event that literally “sells itself” organically. The problem is that creating a real hit is largely a matter of luck.
這就是一個熱門產生的方式，一個可以自然地「自我推銷」的事件。問題在於，創造一個真正的熱門很大程度上是運氣的問題。

Of course, there is always the option to buy traffic. But it’s important to understand that while “feeding” a hit with traffic helps the product, pouring traffic into a mediocre product is a waste of money.
當然，您始終可以選擇購買流量。但重要的是要明白，雖然通過流量 “餵養” 點擊可以幫助產品，但將流量注入平庸的產品則是浪費金錢。

Alex: I’d argue with that despite being new to the industry.
亞歷克斯：儘管我是新手，但我會反駁這一點。

Based on my experience promoting gambling projects, I’m sure that there are no bad products, there is only bad targeting.
根據我在推廣賭博項目方面的經驗，我相信沒有壞產品，只有錯誤的目標定位。

Of course, you can’t spend tens of millions of dollars on a bad product with a positive ROI. However, there are always niches with little competition where you can make a profit with the right target.
當然，您不能在一個具有正面投資回報率的糟糕產品上花費數千萬美元。然而，總是存在一些競爭不激烈的利基市場，您可以透過正確的目標實現利潤。

Let’s stop here. You say that there are no bad products in gambling. And what distinguishes a great product from a mediocre one in this area?
我們就到這裡吧。你說賭博中沒有壞產品。那麼在這個領域，一個優秀產品和一個平庸產品有什麼區別呢？

Alex: Let me talk about failures/successes now, not the quality.
亞歷克斯：現在讓我談談失敗 / 成功，而不是品質。

In our industry, 90% of all projects fail to succeed.
在我們的行業中，90% 的所有項目都失敗了。

The reasons for the failure are different. Here are the four main ones:
失敗的原因各不相同。以下是主要的四個原因：

• Weak operations management;
  弱勢的營運管理；
• Inability to work with traffic;
  無法處理交通；
• Lack of working capital; 缺乏營運資金；
• Underestimation of risks in various regions.
  各地風險低估。

In general, if your GGR (gross gaming revenue) is less than a million dollars per month, you’re a small operator and most likely in the red. At the same time, 90% of products don’t even have such metrics.
一般來說，如果您的 GGR（毛利遊戲收入）每月不到一百萬美元，您就是一個小型經營者，很可能虧損。同時，90％的產品甚至沒有這樣的指標。

Most often, failure occurs when a former manager of a particular gambling product finds an investor and sells them the story that they can create and manage a casino if they just invest money.
大多數情況下，失敗發生在某個賭博產品的前經理找到投資者並向他們銷售故事，說他們只需投資資金就能創建和管理賭場。

I’ve heard hundreds of similar stories. Most of them resulted in money losses.
我聽過數以百計類似的故事。其中大多數導致金錢損失。

A successful product in gambling is one with a GGR of $20-30 million per month. There are no more than 200 such products in the entire market.
賭博中一個成功的產品是每月淨收入為 2000-3000 萬美元的產品。整個市場中不超過 200 個這樣的產品。

Hits are those with a GGR of more than $100 million dollars per month. There are about 30 of them. These are the market leaders.
點擊量是每月超過 1 億美元的 GGR。大約有 30 個。這些是市場領導者。

When looking at the top 5 products, their monthly GGR reaches $300-500 million.
當查看前 5 名產品時，它們的每月 GGR 達到 3 億至 5 億美元。

All figures are approximate because nobody discloses their revenues. But the assessment, I think, is as close as possible to what is happening in the gambling market.
所有數字均為近似值，因為沒有人披露其收入。但我認為評估盡可能接近賭博市場的實際情況。

Vladimir, and what’s the situation with video game revenues?
弗拉基米爾，關於視頻遊戲收入的情況如何？

Vladimir: 95% of games earn nothing.
弗拉基米爾：95% 的遊戲沒有收入。

You can count the number of mobile games that generate over $100 million per month on one hand. These are: Honor of Kings, Monopoly Go!, Royal Match, PUBG Mobile, and Roblox.
你可以用一只手指出每月收入超過 1 億美元的手機遊戲數量。它們分別是：王者榮耀、大富翁 GO！、皇家大配對、絕地求生 M、以及羅布洛克斯。

There are less than a thousand games on the market that make over a million dollars in monthly revenue. And there are around 5 million games across all platforms.
市場上每月營收超過一百萬美元的遊戲不到一千款。而跨所有平台共有約五百萬款遊戲。

So we are talking about fierce competition?
所以我們在談論激烈的競爭？

Vladimir: “Fierce” is too soft a word.
弗拉基米爾：“兇猛” 這個詞太溫和了。

The market is oversaturated and oversupplied. Games are made by absolutely everyone — individuals and large studios, enthusiasts and professionals. Any student can put together a game, immediately put it on the store and, in theory, start making money.
市場過度飽和和供應過剩。遊戲由絕大多數人製作 - 個人和大型工作室，愛好者和專業人士。任何學生都可以製作一款遊戲，立即將其放在商店中，理論上開始賺錢。

Why in theory? 為什麼在理論上？

Most projects are filtered out by users based on a very simple criterion — quality of execution.
大多數項目都是根據一個非常簡單的標準被用戶過濾掉的 — 執行質量。

The idea itself isn’t a costly matter. But Implementing it efficiently is a completely different matter, since it’s both expensive and rare.
這個想法本身並不是一個昂貴的問題。但有效地實施它則是完全不同的問題，因為這既昂貴又罕見。

Good gameplay — both in terms of idea and its implementation — is only the beginning. Monetization, marketing, LiveOps, and working with the audience are no less important.
優秀的遊戲玩法 - 無論是在概念還是實施方面 - 只是一個開始。盈利、營銷、LiveOps 和與觀眾互動同樣重要。

Even if the team does a great job with all of this, the game can be killed by the main form of modern-day competition — competition for traffic. Monetization of many genres doesn’t allow them to recoup the constantly growing CPI, because — along with games — Netflix, TikTok, and YouTube are now fighting for users.
即使團隊在所有這些方面做得很好，遊戲仍可能被現代主要形式的競爭所淘汰 — 流量競爭。 許多類型的盈利無法收回不斷增長的 CPI，因為 — 除了遊戲外 — Netflix、TikTok 和 YouTube 現在也在爭奪用戶。

This is the ideal picture, but in reality, it turns out that working in such a market is extremely difficult.
這是理想的情況，但實際上，在這樣的市場中工作是非常困難的。

Vladimir: In fact, despite the huge competition, it is much easier to work in the global market today than ever before.
弗拉基米爾：實際上，儘管競爭激烈，如今在全球市場工作比以往任何時候都更容易。

Let me explain why. 讓我來解釋為什麼。

The fact is that another mandatory factor for success today is operating worldwide, which implies finding a balance between the size of the audience and its solvency.
事實是，今天成功的另一個強制因素是全球運營，這意味著在觀眾規模和其支付能力之間找到平衡。

Previously, publishers had to enter each market independently. Today, there are platforms and stores that take much of this headache off your hands. For example, they solve payment issues.
以前，出版商必須獨立進入每個市場。如今，有平台和商店可以幫您減輕許多這種煩惱。例如，它們解決支付問題。

Of course, there are markets for such platforms that are relatively closed and require an individual approach. China is one of them, but it is rather an exception to the rule.
當然，有一些相對封閉並需要個別處理的平台市場。中國是其中之一，但這更屬於例外而非規則。

Before we stray too far from the topic of competition, let’s talk about what’s going on with it in gambling?
在我們離開競爭這個話題太遠之前，讓我們來談談賭博中正在發生的事情

Alex: There are thousands of products coexisting on the market, of which just under a hundred are visible.
亞歷克斯：市場上存在著成千上萬種產品，其中只有不到一百種是可見的。

In other words, there was competition, there is competition, and there always will be competition.
換句話說，曾經有競爭，現在有競爭，而且將來永遠都會有競爭。

The main areas that products compete in are rates for partners (which are based on the payback prediction) and the budgets that each company has. There is a direct correlation: the larger the company, the higher the traffic budget and the longer the payback periods it can set.
產品競爭的主要領域是合作夥伴的費率（基於回報預測）和每家公司的預算。這兩者之間存在直接相關性：公司越大，流量預算越高，可以設定的回報期限也越長。

Vladimir has already touched on the topic of operating globally. What about gambling? Is it also necessary to think globally there, to focus on the whole world at once?
弗拉基米爾已經觸及了全球運營的話題。賭博呢？在那方面也需要全球思考嗎，一次專注於整個世界？

Alex: I often see product affiliate programs operating across all possible markets. In the gambling industry, this is impossible; it sounds like complete nonsense.
Alex：我經常看到產品聯盟計劃在所有可能的市場運作。在賭博行業，這是不可能的；聽起來完全是胡說八道。

For almost any gambling product, entering a new region takes several months of work. You need to conduct audience research, adapt the product to it, and connect local payment systems.
對於幾乎所有賭博產品來說，進入新的地區需要幾個月的工作。您需要進行觀眾研究，適應產品，並連接當地的支付系統。

The main problem is precisely payments. Of course, this is much easier in the video game industry, because the problem of accepting payments is solved at the level of stores, which take care of issues related to payment methods in various regions.
主要問題確實是付款。當然，在視頻遊戲行業中，這要容易得多，因為接受付款的問題在商店層面得到解決，這些商店負責處理各個地區付款方式相關的問題。

It is worth emphasizing once again that for gambling, expansion usually implies a fair rework of the product itself, because player behavior patterns vary from country to country: what seems to work in one region may not work in another. And this applies not only to the product itself, but also to its promotion.
再次強調，對於賭博來說，擴展通常意味著對產品本身進行公平的改造，因為玩家的行為模式因國家而異：在一個地區看似有效的方法可能在另一個地區行不通。這不僅適用於產品本身，也適用於其推廣。

By the way, how are things going with user acquisition now?
順便問一下，現在用戶獲取方面的情況如何？

Vladimir: When it comes to video games, marketing as a tool is now used in a very limited way. To make it clearer, I will start with a brief historical digression.
弗拉基米爾：談到視頻遊戲時，作為一種工具的市場營銷現在被非常有限地使用。為了更清楚地說明，我將從一個簡短的歷史插曲開始。

Initially, this tool implied bold decisions and the search for new promotion channels. Marketers formulated branding, a unique selling proposition, and looked for an audience and ways to interact with it.
最初，這個工具意味著大膽的決策和尋找新的推廣渠道。行銷人員制定品牌定位、獨特銷售主張，並尋找觀眾以及與之互動的方式。

Then they started treating it as something too general. As a result, the word “marketing” has come to be associated primarily with user acquisition.
然後他們開始將其視為過於一般的東西。因此，“行銷” 這個詞主要與用戶獲取相關聯。

Another thing is that the creative pipeline, churning out pictures to grab people’s attention, worked effectively primarily in the “wild” years.
另一件事是，創意管道不斷生產圖片以吸引人們的注意，主要在 “狂野” 年代發揮了有效作用。

The popularity of this approach among those involved in marketing games led to three things:
這種方法在遊戲行銷人員中的流行導致了三件事情：

• Emergence of many restrictions (the advertising market began to be regulated, including by law);
  許多限制的出現（廣告市場開始受到監管，包括法律規定）;
• Increase in supply; 供應增加；
• Changes in user behavior.
  用戶行為的變化。

As a result, using visual promotional materials to attract an audience to the game wasn’t enough.The market has become oversupplied. This led many market participants to the idea that it was time to return to the roots, to learn classical marketing.
因此，僅僅使用視覺促銷材料來吸引觀眾參與遊戲已經不夠。市場已經供過於求。這促使許多市場參與者認為是時候回歸本源，學習經典營銷。

Look at how the pages of well-selling games on Steam are designed — they are partly examples of “classic marketing.” Or pay attention to how much effort and resources Supercell invests in brand awareness, so that users unmistakably associate the company’s IP with its games. It is also important to note that Supercell has long been working with classic advertising, interacting directly with the community. Just a few years ago, no one saw the point in this.
看看 Steam 上熱銷遊戲的頁面設計 —— 它們在某種程度上是 “經典營銷” 的範例。或者留意 Supercell 投入多少努力和資源來提升品牌知名度，使用戶毫不含糊地將該公司的 IP 與其遊戲聯繫在一起。同時，值得注意的是，Supercell 長期以來一直在與社區直接互動，並進行經典廣告宣傳。僅僅幾年前，沒有人看到這一點的重要性。

The problem is that there are very few specialists capable of building such marketing strategies. Such professionals must be nurtured in-house.
問題在於能夠建立這種行銷策略的專家非常少。這些專業人士必須在內部培養。

How does gambling attract traffic? Are the problems there the same or is the situation completely different?
賭博如何吸引流量？問題是否相同，還是情況完全不同？

Alex: For me, as a person who has been working with traffic for more than 15 years, it is very strange to hear that games, having the opportunity to use advertising channels without the threat of a ban, manage not to recoup UA investments.
Alex：對我來說，作為一個從事交通工作超過 15 年的人，聽到遊戲有機會利用廣告渠道而不受禁止威脅，卻無法收回 UA 投資，這是非常奇怪的。

I’ve already said that there are no bad products (almost none), there is crappy targeting.
我已經說過，沒有壞的產品（幾乎沒有），只有糟糕的目標定位。

Ad campaign settings and traffic control with positive ROI are the basis. We have thousands of affiliates, most of whom stay in the black. Of course, everyone has different volumes, but the minimum ROI is usually 30-50%.
廣告活動設置和具有積極回報率的流量控制是基礎。我們有數千名聯盟夥伴，其中大多數保持盈利。當然，每個人的量都不同，但最低回報率通常為 30-50%。

I mean that properly executed media buying, with the right analytics and KPI, can always be profitable.
我的意思是，透過正確執行的媒體購買，搭配適當的分析和關鍵績效指標，總是可以盈利的。

It is clear that no one will provide an instant return on investment. It is necessary to correctly calculate the model, take into account the influence of the media component on the performance, use the appropriate payback period depending on the channel, etc.
顯然沒有人會提供即時投資回報。必須正確計算模型，考慮媒體組成對績效的影響，根據渠道使用適當的回報期等。

Are there any tips on traffic sources? Which ones are video game publishers using now, and which ones are considered the most efficient in gambling?
有關流量來源的任何提示嗎？現在遊戲發行商正在使用哪些，哪些被認為在賭博中效率最高？

Vladimir: I don’t think I’m going to reveal anything new: Facebook, Google, AppLovin, Unity, TikTok, CPA networks, influencers. Publishers use all of them.
弗拉基米爾：我不認為我會透露任何新信息：Facebook、Google、AppLovin、Unity、TikTok、CPA 網絡、意見領袖。出版商都在使用它們。

But it seems to me that the emphasis should be on the ROI for which the purchase is made. Everyone remembers the times when companies purchased traffic for the long term, expecting their investment to recoup in a year or two. The downside is that any shock in the market could destroy the entire economy behind such a strategy.
但在我看來，重點應該放在購買的回報率上。每個人都記得公司為長期購買流量而購買時的時期，期望他們的投資在一兩年內收回。壞處是市場的任何震盪都可能摧毀這種策略背後的整個經濟。

Alex: When it comes to traffic sources in gambling, companies in this industry use absolutely everything: search, media, influencers, etc.
Alex：談到賭博的流量來源時，這個行業的公司使用各種方式：搜索、媒體、意見領袖等。

Affiliate marketing is especially helpful because each affiliate is essentially a separate marketing agency, with its own approach, methods, and sources.
聯盟營銷尤其有幫助，因為每個聯盟成員本質上是一家獨立的營銷代理機構，具有自己的方法、途徑和來源。

I see. Thank you for the interesting conversation. We’ll be able to dive even deeper into online gambling and its intersection with the video game industry the next month as WN Media Group will be hosting the WN iGaming Summit in Cyprus on December 11.
我明白了。感謝您提供有趣的對話。下個月我們將有機會更深入地探討線上賭博及其與視頻遊戲行業的交集，因為 WN Media Group 將於 12 月 11 日在塞浦路斯舉辦 WN iGaming 峰會。

WN iGaming Summit will focus on C-level executives and key decision-makers in the iGaming industry:

• Gambling game providers;
• Operators and platforms that distribute and license games;
• Affiliates that drive traffic;
• Payment solution providers.

Attendees will gather at the Parklane Resort & Spa to discuss the latest industry trends. There will also be talks from speakers, including:

• Vladimir Nikolsky — founder of investment firm Utmost.games;
• Sven Kaltenegger — CMO at High Roller;
• Alex Riddick — CEO at PIN-UP Partners;
• Mariusz Gasiewski — mobile gaming and apps lead for the CEE region at Google.

The organizers aim to hold an event that will differ from the usual iGaming conferences. The focus will be on the use of emerging technologies in the area, as well as possible synergies with the video game industry.

Standard tickets cost €200. The VIP pass, which includes the exclusive networking party, is €500. These are early-bird prices as they will increase closer to the event date.

All participants will have access to the WN Hub meeting system to network with other guests and stream lectures. It will be available from December 4 to December 18.

Marketing firm RockApp, which is part of R&R Group, will be the event’s gold sponsor.

While WN iGaming Summit is WN Media Group’s first event fully focused on the online gambling industry, the company has already touched on this topic during its previous conferences. For example, WN Conference Cyprus’24 saw an in-depth conversation about the differences between the video game industry and the iGaming market.

According to the event’s organizers, over 100 founders and executives are expected to gather at WN C-Level Summit Abu Dhabi’24. They will share experiences and industry insights, as well as take stock of 2024 in a private setting.

“The C-level summit has two main aspects: business and personal,” Julia Lebedeva, COO and partner at WN Media Group said in a statement. “On the one hand, we would like to give people who make key decisions the opportunity to communicate face-to-face, share experiences and thoughts about the current state of the games market, as well as get first-hand information from the main platforms. On the other hand, we will touch on the topic of stress and how to deal with it. Some of the guests will be able to take tests using Stressonika technology and get a detailed analysis of how their brain works.”

The event’s program is focused on group work and networking. Below are some of the topics:

• Google’s insights into 2024: a year in review and key industry trends;
• News from Apple: the state of the iOS platform and how developers can achieve better results;
• PC game distribution: navigating the future of the market, growth opportunities, and innovative strategies;
• Investment climate: is the environment finally heating up?

During the second part of WN C-Level Summit Abu Dhabi’24, attendees will be able to take part in interactive sessions. Aleksandr Smirnov, PhD in Medicine, CTO, and co-founder of CleverPoint, will share practical knowledge on identifying stress, effective self-regulation techniques and tools, and give the opportunity to test CleverPoint’s VR technology.

The program will end with a networking dinner and desert experience. Attendees will be able to continue their conversations in a more relaxed atmosphere, sitting around campfires and watching the stars.

WN C-Level Summit Abu Dhabi’24 is WN Media Group’s sixth event for gaming executives. The company has already held similar gatherings in the UK, Cyprus, Spain, and Turkey.

There’s a limited number of tickets to keep the event cozy, make sure to secure your ticket now.